Is Vinnana in Dependent Origination (second limb) and the Vinnantayatana Arupavacar the same?

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SarathW
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Is Vinnana in Dependent Origination (second limb) and the Vinnantayatana Arupavacar the same?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:53 pm

Is Vinnana in Dependent Origination (second limb) and the Vinnantayatana in Arupavacar Jhana the same?
If not what is the difference?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

ToVincent
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Re: Is Vinnana in Dependent Origination (second limb) and the Vinnantayatana Arupavacar the same?

Post by ToVincent » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:49 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:53 pm
Is Vinnana in Dependent Origination (second limb) and the Vinnantayatana in Arupavacar Jhana the same?
If not what is the difference?
vinnantayatana arupavacar !?!?!?

Do you mean viññanam anidassana when you speak about vinnantayatana arupavacar?

If so, viññana nidāna & viññanam anidassana are the same thing, provided that there is no maintenance of consciousness (and no ensuing descent (avakkanti) of consciousness in the khandhas of nāmarūpa nidāna).
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=22409&p=502083&hil ... 33#p502083
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
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https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Srilankaputra
Posts: 611
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Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Is Vinnana in Dependent Origination (second limb) and the Vinnantayatana Arupavacar the same?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:04 am

For my self, the question is , does the conditional relations in DO apply to one in viññāṇañcāyatana(infinite consciousness) who is not an Arahant?

What about non-percipient beings (asaññasatta) ?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

ToVincent
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Is Vinnana in Dependent Origination (second limb) and the Vinnantayatana Arupavacar the same?

Post by ToVincent » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:25 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:04 am
For my self, the question is , does the conditional relations in DO apply to one in viññāṇañcāyatana(infinite consciousness) who is not an Arahant?
This question is a bit confusing.
The Stages of the Path.
8. arahant 2 (fruit), tathagata.
----[eliminated: five higher fetters (saṃyojanā)]
7. arahant 1 (path), asekha (non-learner),
---- noble path (ten factors).
---- eradicated: the five hindrances (pañca nīvaraṇāni) that hinder enlightenment.
6. non-returner (fruit).
---[eliminated: three asava's ,fetters 4 and 5, six sense spheres, five clinging aggregates]
5. non-returner (path)
4. once returner (fruit)
---[reduced: fetters 4 and five.]
3. once returner (path)
2. stream enterer (fruit), sekha (learner), noble disciple
--- noble eightfold path.
---[ asava of views eliminated, first three fetters eliminated ]
1. stream enterer (path)
0. worldling (puthujjana)
--- wrong eightfold path.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14373&p=210681&hil ... d9#p210783

TAINTS (āsavā)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- craving for sensual pleasures
- craving for existence
- ignorance

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

HINDRANCES (nivaraṇi):
---------------------------------
- Sensory desire (kāmacchanda)
- Ill-will (vyāpāda; also spelled byāpāda):
- Sloth-torpor (thīna-middha):
- Uncomprehendingness - Doubt (vicikicchā):
- Overdoing & Underdoing [usually remorseful] (uddhacca-kukkucca)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

FETTERS (samyojana, saŋyojana, saññojana)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Five lower fetters
------------------------------------
Self-identity views (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
uncomprehendingness (~doubt) (vicikicchā)
grasping on austerities (or religious practices) (sīlabbata-parāmāso)
sensual desire (kāmacchando)
ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo)

Five higher fetters
-------------------------------------
Passion for form (rūparāgo)
passion for what is formless (arūparāgo)
conceit (māna)
restlessness [overdoing] (uddhacca)
ignorance (avijjā)



-------

Regardless of what an arahant "really" is, what imports is that as long as there is a maintenance of conciousness, neither viññana anidassana (the luminous consciousness that is no more manifested), nor viññāṇañcāyatana (infinite consciousness) can be experienced.

Viññana nidāna is (at the same time) the consciousness of all the sattas (with all the infinite possibilities of the "world") - a sort of collective consciousness invisible to the ones who still "maintain" it.

When there is no maintenance of consciousness anymore, that is to say when there is no more lower fetters (samyojanā), taints (āsavā), and hindrances (nivaraṇi), then one can see this luminous infinite consciousness.

https://justpaste.it/1695d
https://justpaste.it/img/51a3a38fb4d299 ... 9fb84b.png https://justpaste.it/1bzye

To answer your question, DO is there for everyone - arahant or non-arahant.
Where one positions oneself in the "escape" process is the real issue.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Srilankaputra
Posts: 611
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Is Vinnana in Dependent Origination (second limb) and the Vinnantayatana Arupavacar the same?

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:38 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:04 am
does the conditional relations in DO apply to one in viññāṇañcāyatana(infinite consciousness) who is not an Arahant?

What about non-percipient beings (asaññasatta) ?
For myself I would say, if the upper fire stick and the lower fire stick is still present the possibility of heat is not gone beyond.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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