What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
justindesilva
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:38 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:42 am
What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

For instance some think self view is just a strategy .
Others think Nibbana is a real place or arahants do not exist after death.
Basically the question is what is the destination for people with wrong view?
What about the people who misinterpret Anatta?
The present day buddhists in Asian countries who spread monks robes around dagobas and throw millions of flowers around dagobas , throw tons of rice offered as budda pooja and make budda statues with large monetary collections , are destined to hell or naraka for misinterpretation of buddha darma. There had been christians such as mother Teresa and certain rev. Fathers who have developed mettha or brahma vihara .
Though they have not been nominal Buddhists they have developed the kusal citta indicated by lord budda.
Anatta are those who are not sakkaya ditthi while we can find many who help othèrs selflessly.
Therefore we cannot identify and discuss with present characters the meaning of anatta as sn 22.59 anatta lakkana sutta indicates that one who is selfless do not perceive or determines do not work for self benefits.
Bikkus feeling perception determination are not self.
Bikkus consciousness is not self. Were consciouness is self then this consciousnes would not lead to affliction.
Many who live in buddhist cultures learn to absorb anatta
while those who live with other cultures find it hard to do so.

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Grigoris
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:31 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:23 am
Source?
Since hell is "painful feelings" and animal womb is "non-transcending" (lit: "moving horizontally"), obviously these are the destinations of those who don't penetrate the Teachings. Their minds continue to wallow in ignorance & dukkha.
Why hell though? The animal realm is characterised by ignorance/dullness, so it makes sense that wrong view would lead to rebirth there. But I have seen no Sutta that teaches that ignorance leads to birth in the Hell Realm.

That is why I am asking for a source and not an opinion.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:11 am

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:11 am

Almost exactly like the Christians.

They approached the islanders and preached the gospel. The islanders asked what happened if they chose not to believe. The Christians told them Hell.

The islanders asked “what if we’d never heard of Christ in the first place?”

The Cristians replied, “oh. Well. Nothing.”

“Then why’d you tell us!!!” The islanders exclaimed.
Yes, that's the story I was thinking of. Almost certainly apocryphal, of course, but it does make an important point about the relationship between faith and prediction.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:31 am

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:14 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:48 am
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:33 am
Nope. Christians go to Hell. Christians teach that Buddhists go to Hell - so we must adopt the middle way and send all the Christians to Hell. It is the only way to achieve balance.
Some Christians might teach that Buddhists go to hell, in the same way that some Buddhists teach things which are substantially different from other Buddhists. But it's not a significantly characteristic teaching. I live in a strongly Christian community and have never heard that teaching, or anything like it. One's understanding of Christianity is of course conditioned by the contact one has had with Christians, which is why it might be good to exercise circumspection around beliefs.
Where I live (a moderately secular community which Grew up in a time of dominant Christianity) the price for not believing in God’s Sacrifice of His One and Only Son was an eternity in Hell.
As I said, one's understanding of any huge and complex entity such as Christianity is conditioned by the limited contact that one has with it. That's why extrapolations and generalisations about the entity as a whole are best carried out with care. My wife is a Christian priest, and doesn't believe that I'm going to hell (which is fortunate for our marriage, I guess!). The idea of this gentle and lovable woman saying that anyone would go to hell is inconceivable.
If the Christian dogma doesn’t preach “believe in Christ or perish”, then where do the pagans go?
Different types of Christians have different types of answer for this one, some of them involving theological arguments of great subtlety and complexity. I personally have no idea where people "go" after death, and don't even know if that's a sensible question; so I'm not too bothered as to what people in other faiths think about this. I could only take them seriously if I thought they knew, and that includes Buddhists.
What was the purpose of the sacrifice of Jesus?
See above. It depends on which Christian you talk to. That's a bit like debating something like "Why do Buddhists think there is no self?" on a Christian forum. Participants would be hampered by a lack of detailed understanding and a pre-existing lack of engagement with the topic.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:35 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:40 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:31 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:23 am
Source?
Since hell is "painful feelings" and animal womb is "non-transcending" (lit: "moving horizontally"), obviously these are the destinations of those who don't penetrate the Teachings. Their minds continue to wallow in ignorance & dukkha.
Why hell though? The animal realm is characterised by ignorance/dullness, so it makes sense that wrong view would lead to rebirth there. But I have seen no Sutta that teaches that ignorance leads to birth in the Hell Realm.

That is why I am asking for a source and not an opinion.
SN 42.2 and 3 are sometimes cited here:
Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.

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Grigoris
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:53 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:35 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:40 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:31 am

Since hell is "painful feelings" and animal womb is "non-transcending" (lit: "moving horizontally"), obviously these are the destinations of those who don't penetrate the Teachings. Their minds continue to wallow in ignorance & dukkha.
Why hell though? The animal realm is characterised by ignorance/dullness, so it makes sense that wrong view would lead to rebirth there. But I have seen no Sutta that teaches that ignorance leads to birth in the Hell Realm.

That is why I am asking for a source and not an opinion.
SN 42.2 and 3 are sometimes cited here:
Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Oh, of course. Thing is that in both these cases the individuals are engaged in specific actions related to their wrong view. I wonder if the outcome would be the same if, let us say, an Abrahamist engaging in acts of charity (believing it would lead to birth in heaven) died during the execution of these acts of charity?

Talaputa would have been engaged in deception and Yodhajiva would have been killing people, so it makes some sort of sense that they would/could be reborn in a hell realm.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:03 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:53 am

Oh, of course. Thing is that in both these cases the individuals are engaged in specific actions related to their wrong view. I wonder if the outcome would be the same if, let us say, an Abrahamist engaging in acts of charity (believing it would lead to birth in heaven) died during the execution of these acts of charity?

Talaputa would have been engaged in deception and Yodhajiva would have been killing people, so it makes some sort of sense that they would/could be reborn in a hell realm.
Yes, my thoughts exactly. Abrahamists of all persuasions also perform acts of selfless charity out of love of God or love of the other; that seems to be even more blameless than a person who acts charitably for a heavenly reward. There is also the question of how wrong does an individual's understanding of the teachings have to be in order to propel him/her into hell? Had Ananda, for example, died before he attained enlightenment, would his less-than-perfect understanding have been sufficient?

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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:02 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:36 am
If so, it might be better never to hear about Buddhism in the first place. Risking hell seems a high price to pay for honest but misguided endeavour.
I beg your pardon, but we were never promised a rose garden.

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:03 am
There is also the question of how wrong does an individual's understanding of the teachings have to be in order to propel him/her into hell? Had Ananda, for example, died before he attained enlightenment, would his less-than-perfect understanding have been sufficient?
I've heard there are different torments in hell, not all hellish torments are equal.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:44 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:02 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:36 am
If so, it might be better never to hear about Buddhism in the first place. Risking hell seems a high price to pay for honest but misguided endeavour.
I beg your pardon, but we were never promised a rose garden.
We certainly have been promised a rose garden, along with hell, rebirth as human beings, life as disembodied spirits, oblivion, the beatific vision, etc., etc. It pays to ask who is doing the promising, and how they know.
Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it.
Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everlasting bliss?
(Marlowe, Dr. Faustus)
I've heard there are different torments in hell, not all hellish torments are equal.
Indeed. All of them seem designed to demonstrate huge amounts of suffering though, and my point is that a claim that slightly imperfect understanding is sufficient to send one there is an odd thing.

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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:11 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:44 am
We certainly have been promised a rose garden, along with hell, rebirth as human beings, life as disembodied spirits, oblivion, the beatific vision, etc., etc.
Then where's the problem?
It pays to ask who is doing the promising, and how they know.
Infinite regress.
Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it.
Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everlasting bliss?
(Marlowe, Dr. Faustus)
"I ought to have a special hell for my anger, a hell for my pride, - and a hell for sex; a whole symphony of hells!"
(Arthur Rimbaud, A Season in Hell: Night in Hell)
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:44 am
Indeed. All of them seem designed to demonstrate huge amounts of suffering though,

and my point is that a claim that slightly imperfect understanding is sufficient to send one there is an odd thing.
Not at all. It's rather common in religious doctrines. Threats of hell (eternal hell, at that) are one of the main motivational tools in the preachings strategies of many religious apologists.

And not only in the doctrines. Religious/spiritual people are famous for the ease with which they condemn others to hell, or at least pronounce them to be disingenuous.

Seems like karmic justice that, in turn, those religious/spiritual people have qualms about the possibility of getting themselves to hell "for honest but misguided endeavour".
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:32 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:40 am
I have seen no Sutta that teaches that ignorance leads to birth in the Hell Realm.
Really?
The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience & lack of concern.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
upon dissolution of the body that ignorant man is born in hell.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp129-145/en/buddharakkhita
This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, I have seen beings who practise misconduct by body, speech, and mind, who vilify the noble ones, who hold wrong view and perform various deeds because of their wrong view. When the body perishes, those beings are reborn after death in a state of misery, a bad bourn, a state of ruin, in hell. I say this, bhikkhus, without having learnt it from another recluse or brahmin. It is just because I myself have known it, seen it, and observed it that I say: ‘Bhikkhus, I have seen beings who practise misconduct by body, speech, and mind … reborn after death in a state of misery … in hell.’”

An individual here with
A wrongly directed mind
Who utters wrong speech
And performs wrong deeds,
One of little learning,
Who does demerit in this short life—
Upon the perishing of the body
That foolish one is reborn in hell.''

https://suttacentral.net/iti70/en/ireland
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:45 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:11 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:44 am
We certainly have been promised a rose garden, along with hell, rebirth as human beings, life as disembodied spirits, oblivion, the beatific vision, etc., etc.
Then where's the problem?
The problem is in people making claims which are faith-based sound as if they are knowledge-based.
Infinite regress.
Is it? I don't normally have the patience. I tend to assume that people are pretending that they know, when they don't know.
Not at all. It's rather common in religious doctrines. Threats of hell (eternal hell, at that) are one of the main motivational tools in the preachings strategies of many religious apologists.
True enough. By "odd" I didn't mean statistically rare, but psychologically dubious.
And not only in the doctrines. Religious/spiritual people are famous for the ease with which they condemn others to hell, or at least pronounce them to be disingenuous.
Maybe. Hell is a matter of post-mortem metaphysics and therefore has (I assume) to be faith-based, whereas disingenuousness is a matter of practical experience.
Seems like karmic justice that, in turn, those religious/spiritual people have qualms about the possibility of getting themselves to hell "for honest but misguided endeavour".
There may be some like that, but I'm more familiar with those who have no qualms because their self-confidence is unfeasibly strong. The ones who are certain that others will be in hell, but that they themselves will not.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:54 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:32 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:40 am
I have seen no Sutta that teaches that ignorance leads to birth in the Hell Realm.
Really?
The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience & lack of concern.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
upon dissolution of the body that ignorant man is born in hell.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp129-145/en/buddharakkhita
This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, I have seen beings who practise misconduct by body, speech, and mind, who vilify the noble ones, who hold wrong view and perform various deeds because of their wrong view. When the body perishes, those beings are reborn after death in a state of misery, a bad bourn, a state of ruin, in hell. I say this, bhikkhus, without having learnt it from another recluse or brahmin. It is just because I myself have known it, seen it, and observed it that I say: ‘Bhikkhus, I have seen beings who practise misconduct by body, speech, and mind … reborn after death in a state of misery … in hell.’”

An individual here with
A wrongly directed mind
Who utters wrong speech
And performs wrong deeds,
One of little learning,
Who does demerit in this short life—
Upon the perishing of the body
That foolish one is reborn in hell.''

https://suttacentral.net/iti70/en/ireland
Isn't Grigoris asking for evidence that ignorance is a sufficient condition for rebirth in hell, whereas the above suttas merely show that it is a necessary but not sufficient condition?

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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:55 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:36 am
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:49 am
Hell or the animal womb. No exceptions.
If so, it might be better never to hear about Buddhism in the first place. Risking hell seems a high price to pay for honest but misguided endeavour.
It does not work that way. This is not necessarily about the next life, since the one who has not freed himself from samsara has countless lives ahead, and falling into the lower worlds is very simple. If a person did not meet the Dhamma, did not accept it, and did not reach at least the fruit of sotapanna, then sooner or later he will be born in the suffering worlds. Just math.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:00 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:55 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:36 am
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:49 am
Hell or the animal womb. No exceptions.
If so, it might be better never to hear about Buddhism in the first place. Risking hell seems a high price to pay for honest but misguided endeavour.
This is not necessarily about the next life, since the one who has not freed himself from samsara has countless lives ahead, and falling into the lower worlds is very simple. If a person did not meet the Dhamma, did not accept it, and did not reach at least the fruit of sotapanna, then sooner or later he will be born in the suffering worlds. Just math.
Yes, fair point, but I take the question to be about whether the same predicament applies to one who misunderstands the Buddha's teachings. Is it the case that unless one's understanding is perfect, one might as well not have bothered?

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