What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:11 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:15 pm
It's not possible to explore it "too far", it's "infinite".
The regression might be, but my interest in it is certainly not.
My point was that trying to figure out whether and how another person knows something is subject to infinite regress.
The exact reverse, as far as I'm concerned. Depending on context I can usually make a quick and reasonable judgement as to whether someone is a time-waster or a bullshitter or has bad intentions, and that saves an enormous amount of time and effort.
Have you ever considered what your quick judgment of them does to them, what consequences it has for them?

And conversely, for you?
"Given that the Blessed One has declared, lord, that bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct should not be done, what drawbacks can one expect when doing what should not be done?"

"Given that I have declared, Ananda, that bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct should not be done, these are the drawbacks one can expect when doing what should not be done: One can fault oneself; observant people, on close examination, criticize one; one's bad reputation gets spread about; one dies confused; and — on the break-up of the body, after death — one reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Given that I have declared, Ananda, that bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct should not be done, these are the drawbacks one can expect when doing what should not be done.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Grigoris
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:02 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:47 am
My impression is you are talking about something that does not exist. MN 9 says ignorance arises together with asava or oozing out of defilements. Unlikely ignorance can exist alone, without producing other mentality. Your idea of ignorance appears extremely static. Regards
And I quote:
1) Delusion (moha): Moha, “delusion,” is a synonym for avijjā, “ignorance.”
Its characteristic is mental blindness or unknowing (aññāṇa). Its function is nonpenetration,
or concealment, of the real nature of the object. It is manifested as the
absence of right understanding or as mental darkness. Its proximate cause is unwise
attention (ayoniso manasikāra). It should be seen as the root of all that is unwholesome.
Bhikku Bodhi Abhidhammattha Sangaha p.72 chap. 2. Compendium of Mental Factors
Enumeration of the Unwholesome
(akusalasangaha) §3. Taints
Kathaṁ? Akusalasangahe tāva cattāro āsavā: (1) kāmāsavo; (2)
bhavāsavo; (3) diṭṭhāsavo; (4) avijjāsavo.
How? First, in the compendium of the unwholesome (akusala), there are four
taints (āsava): (1) the taint of sensory desire (kāmāsava); (2) the taint of (attachment to)
existence (bhavāsava); (3) the taint of wrong views (diṭṭhāsava); and (4) the taint of
ignorance (avijjāsava).
p.226 chap. 7. Compendium of Categories
§4. Floods
Cattāro oghā: (1) kāmogho; (2) bhavogho; (3) diṭṭhogho; (4) avijjogho.
There are four floods (ogha): (1) the flood of sensory desire (kāmogha); (2) the
flood of (attachment to) existence (bhavogha); (3) the flood of wrong views (diṭṭhogha);
and (4) the flood of ignorance (avijjogha).
§5. Bonds
Cattāro yogā: (1) kāmayogo; (2) bhavayogo; (3) diṭṭhiyogo; (4) avijjāyogo.
There are four bonds (yoga): (1) the bond of sensory desire (kāmayoga); (2) the
bond of (attachment to) existence (bhavayoga); (3) the bond of wrong views (diṭṭhiyoga);
and (4) the bond of ignorance (avijjāyoga
p.227 chap. 7. Compendium of Categories
§8. Hindrances
Cha nīvaraṇāni: (1) kāmacchandanīvaraṇaṁ; (2) vyāpādanīvaraṇaṁ;
(3) thīnamiddhanīvaraṇaṁ; (4) udhaccakukkuccanīvaraṇaṁ;
(5) vicikicchānīvaraṇaṁ; (6) avijjānīvaraṇaṁ.
There are six hindrances (nīvaraṇa): the hindrance of (1) desire for gratification
of the senses (kāmacchanda); (2) ill will (vyāpāda); (3) sloth and torpor (thīna-middha);
(4) restlessness and worry (udhacca-kukkucca); (5) doubt (vicikicchā); and (6) ignorance
(avijjā).
p.229 chap. 7. Compendium of Categories
Etc...
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

binocular
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:01 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:51 pm
I am talking about ignorance PER SE as the cause of rebirth in hell: "You are ignorant, thus you are going to hell."
So this would apply to infants who can't perform much of any mental, verbal, or bodily actions?

(Perhaps you're alluding to the Catholic idea of (unbaptized) infants going to hell?)
As opposed to: "Due to your ignorance, you engage in this or that behaviour thus you are going to hell."
Which would apply to people who are old enough to perform mental, verbal, and bodily actions, ie. most people.

Apart from infants, the severely disabled, and some other categories, every person engages in mental, verbal, and bodily actions; on principle, a person cannot not act.
For most people, the dichotomy you propose doesn't apply.

It seems that the idea to unpack is this one:

"A person who is ignorant of the Dhamma [ignorance refers to 'ignorance of the Dhamma'] cannot act wholesomely, at least not intentionally.
Therefore, all their intentional actions are unwholesome. As such, they are destined for hell."
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sunnat
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by sunnat » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:14 am

"A person who is ignorant of the Dhamma [ignorance refers to 'ignorance of the Dhamma'] cannot act wholesomely, at least not intentionally.
Therefore, all their intentional actions are unwholesome. As such, they are destined for hell."

Seems to be an odd sort of thing to say. Truism that, incorrect or not, doesn't really mean anything .?

SarathW
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:45 am

"A person who is ignorant of the Dhamma [ignorance refers to 'ignorance of the Dhamma'] cannot act wholesomely, at least not intentionally.
Therefore, all their intentional actions are unwholesome. As such, they are destined for hell."
I agree your point but what I am trying to establish here is about the people who get Buddha's teaching wrong.
Is it possible for them to at least have the Lokiya Sammadithi.
For instance Mahayana belief in Nibbana is different to Theravada.
Assuming Mahayana is incorrect, even though they are incorrect in their understanding of Nibbana they still may have the Lokiya Sammadithi.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Grigoris
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:05 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:01 am
(Perhaps you're alluding to the Catholic idea of (unbaptized) infants going to hell?)
No, but it seems to me that people here are. If you had bothered reading my posts you would see that I am arguing the opposite.
Which would apply to people who are old enough to perform mental, verbal, and bodily actions, ie. most people.

Apart from infants, the severely disabled, and some other categories, every person engages in mental, verbal, and bodily actions; on principle, a person cannot not act.
For most people, the dichotomy you propose doesn't apply.
Non sequitur, which is not surprising given you completely misunderstood what I have said so far.
It seems that the idea to unpack is this one:

"A person who is ignorant of the Dhamma [ignorance refers to 'ignorance of the Dhamma'] cannot act wholesomely, at least not intentionally.
Therefore, all their intentional actions are unwholesome. As such, they are destined for hell."
Thnks for pointing out the obvious! :roll:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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seeker242
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by seeker242 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:21 am

The destination is whatever their kamma dictates. You don't know their kamma, therefore you can't know their destination either. The most one can say is wrong view is negative kamma. Views are not the only kamma made. You don't know all their kamma, so you can't know their destination.

For particular people, it's an impossible question to answer. Unless you have a divine eye. :meditate:

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:15 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:02 am
And I quote:
Grigoris. Your quotes appear to be non-sequitur and an avoidance of my reply to you. Allow me to repeat what I posted. You appear to be asserting ignorance can exist statically, on its own, without causing any arising of asava, sankhara, cravings, etc.

I imagine ignorance is not like being stuck in solitary confinement in a dark room. Ignorance causes asava (impulses, eruptions, fermentations) to ooze out or burst forth (MN 9). Put another say, AN 10.61 says the five hindrances are the food of ignorance. In other words, when ignorance exists, the five hindrance will exist (which sustain the maintenance of ignorance). It appears impossible to say ignorance can exist alone statically.

Regards
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:21 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:11 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:15 pm
It's not possible to explore it "too far", it's "infinite".
The regression might be, but my interest in it is certainly not.
My point was that trying to figure out whether and how another person knows something is subject to infinite regress.
Yes, the same applies. I don't have much time for that kind of doubt, because it's not helpful.
Have you ever considered what your quick judgment of them does to them, what consequences it has for them?
We seem to have wandered away from the main topic here, but yes, considering the consequences of one's judgements is a normal component of effective communication and necessary for ethical dealings with others.
And conversely, for you?
"Given that the Blessed One has declared, lord, that bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct should not be done, what drawbacks can one expect when doing what should not be done?"

"Given that I have declared, Ananda, that bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct should not be done, these are the drawbacks one can expect when doing what should not be done: One can fault oneself; observant people, on close examination, criticize one; one's bad reputation gets spread about; one dies confused; and — on the break-up of the body, after death — one reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Given that I have declared, Ananda, that bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct should not be done, these are the drawbacks one can expect when doing what should not be done.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Of course, but you seem to be conflating "quick judgement" with misconduct, which is clearly erroneous. Judgements of all types relevant in this context are equally compatible with this:
I say categorically, Ananda, that good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, & good mental conduct should be done."

"Given that the Blessed One has declared, lord, that good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, & good mental conduct should be done, what rewards can one expect when doing what should be done?"

"Given that I have declared, Ananda, that good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, & good mental conduct should be done, these are the rewards one can expect when doing what should be done: One doesn't fault oneself; observant people, on close examination, praise one; one's good reputation gets spread about; one dies unconfused; and — on the break-up of the body, after death — one reappears in the good destinations, in the heavenly world. Given that I have declared, Ananda, that good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, & good mental conduct should be done, these are the rewards one can expect when doing what should be done.

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Grigoris
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:39 pm

I believe that one of the problems with this discussion is that we are confounding wrong view (mistaken interpretation, in the particular instance) and ignorance.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:27 am

The only possible destination for the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong is:




  • SAMSARA



Image
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

binocular
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:15 pm
Grigoris. Your quotes appear to be non-sequitur and an avoidance of my reply to you. Allow me to repeat what I posted. You appear to be asserting ignorance can exist statically, on its own, without causing any arising of asava, sankhara, cravings, etc.

I imagine ignorance is not like being stuck in solitary confinement in a dark room. Ignorance causes asava (impulses, eruptions, fermentations) to ooze out or burst forth (MN 9). Put another say, AN 10.61 says the five hindrances are the food of ignorance. In other words, when ignorance exists, the five hindrance will exist (which sustain the maintenance of ignorance). It appears impossible to say ignorance can exist alone statically.
From some (folk) Christian perspectives, for example, such is posssible, though. Because in those perspectives, how a person acts and what they intend doesn't really matter and doesn't have salvific power.

You probably know that in early Catholic doctrine, for example, it was believed that everyone who was ignorant of the Gospel/unbaptized was bound to burn in hell for all eternity. Whereby it is baptism that has salvific power. It was later on that they added extenuating circumstances like 'ignorant of the Gospel by no fault of one's own' or 'ignorant of the Gospel or wrongly understanding the Gospel due to mental illness' and some others, such as 'baptism by desire'.

It wouldn't be a surprise to find the same theme in Buddhist discourses, esp. those by people of Western cultural background. From what I'm seeing in this discussion, the pattern of questions and issues is similar to those in the development of the Catholic doctrine of eternal damnation.
Last edited by binocular on Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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binocular
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:54 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:45 am
I agree your point but what I am trying to establish here is about the people who get Buddha's teaching wrong.
What about it? Wrong is wrong.

In terms of this discussion, I think it all goes back to what one believes about the power of human intention and action, and what about the power of membership in a particular religion.

Ideally, this is a section of the demarcation line between the Dhamma and Buddhism.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:00 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:27 am
The only possible destination for the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong is:
  • SAMSARA
Then what about those Buddhist traditions in which members are determined to stay in samsara in order to help others, or in which they maintain that nirvana is samsara ...
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:46 am

binocular wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:00 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:27 am
The only possible destination for the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong is:
  • SAMSARA
Then what about those Buddhist traditions in which members are determined to stay in samsara in order to help others, or in which they maintain that nirvana is samsara ...


Good point.


Let's see what i've written:
The only possible destination for the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong is: SAMSARA




For those who get Buddha's teachings right, there are two destinations: samsara and the other one, depending on their choice and ability. (that's for the first part of the question.)


For the second part:
Nirvana may or may not be samsara, i am not familiar with that word.
However, Nibbana is not samsara.
If there are those who maintain that "nibbana is samsara", they are either ...... Wrong, or Not right enough.
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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