What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
Posts: 6328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:41 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:00 pm
Yes, fair point, but I take the question to be about whether the same predicament applies to one who misunderstands the Buddha's teachings. Is it the case that unless one's understanding is perfect, one might as well not have bothered?
It's not like one is said to be better off if one doesn't bother at all.
Everything has a cost.

And it's not like the stay in hell is forever. We're talking here about thousands and thousands of rebirths. And if 20% of them are in hell, it's still not much.

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:54 pm
Isn't Grigoris asking for evidence that ignorance is a sufficient condition for rebirth in hell, whereas the above suttas merely show that it is a necessary but not sufficient condition?
If the quest for finding out whether ignorance (of the Dhamma) is a sufficient or a necessary condition for rebirth in hell is motivated by the desire to construct one's innocence, then such a quest is kammically (in terms of intention/motivation) questionable. IOW, such a quest can be motivated by the desire to find an excuse.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
Posts: 6328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:54 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:45 pm
The problem is in people making claims which are faith-based sound as if they are knowledge-based.
Why would that be a problem?
Don't you believe that everyone is responsible for themselves?
Is it? I don't normally have the patience. I tend to assume that people are pretending that they know, when they don't know.
You otherwise have good diplomatic skills ...
True enough. By "odd" I didn't mean statistically rare, but psychologically dubious.
Well, this is samsara ... "Psychologically dubious" is the norm here.
Maybe. Hell is a matter of post-mortem metaphysics and therefore has (I assume) to be faith-based,
What isn't faith-based?
whereas disingenuousness is a matter of practical experience.
One then still sets oneself up as the arbiter of the Dhamma, and specifically, as the arbiter of another person's committment to the Dhamma. That's psychologically dubious.
There may be some like that, but I'm more familiar with those who have no qualms because their self-confidence is unfeasibly strong. The ones who are certain that others will be in hell, but that they themselves will not.
Funny how that works out, eh.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 928
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Nicolas » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:00 pm

This sutta quote might be useful--in short, wrong view is always unwholesome kamma, but one with wrong view might be "reborn" in a higher realm (due to other circumstances, e.g. good conduct from present or past life):
Mahākammavibhaṅga Sutta (MN 136) wrote: There is the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given [steals], engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view. With the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.

But there is also the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given, engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, (yet) with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world.

[...]

Now, Ānanda, in the case where the contemplative or brahman says, ‘So there really are evil actions, there really is the result of misconduct,’ I allow him that. When he says, ‘For I saw the case where a person who took life… & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,’ I allow him that, too. But when he says, ‘Anyone who takes life… & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell,’ I don’t allow him that. And when he says, ‘Whoever knows this, knows rightly; whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong,’ I don’t allow him that. When, insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: ‘Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless,’ I don’t allow him that, either. Why is that? Because the Tathāgata’s knowledge with regard to the greater analysis of action is otherwise.

Now, Ānanda, in the case where the contemplative or brahman says, ‘So there really are no evil actions, there really is no result of misconduct,’ I don’t allow him that. But when he says, ‘For I saw the case where a person who took life… & held wrong view, with the breakup of the body, after death, has reappeared in a good destination, a heavenly world,’ I do allow him that. But when he says, ‘Anyone who takes life… & hold wrong view: They all, on the breakup of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world,’ I don’t allow him that. And when he says, ‘Whoever knows this, knows rightly. Whoever knows otherwise, their knowledge is wrong,’ I don’t allow him that. When, insisting through obstinacy & grasping right there on what was seen by himself, known by himself, understood by himself, he states: ‘Only this is true. Everything otherwise is worthless,’ I don’t allow him that, either. Why is that? Because the Tathāgata’s knowledge with regard to the greater analysis of action is otherwise.

It's worth noting that we are talking about mundane wrong view here, as the first two paragraphs I quoted list the three types of unwholesome bodily kamma, the four types of unwholesome verbal kamma, and the three types of unwholesome mental kamma.
See the following for reference:
Sāleyyaka Sutta (MN 41) wrote: And how, householders, are there three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct?
[...]
Or he has wrong view, distorted vision, thus: ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realised by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’
So my understanding is that one can have mundane right view and still get some of the teachings wrong.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 5363
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:25 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:41 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:00 pm
Yes, fair point, but I take the question to be about whether the same predicament applies to one who misunderstands the Buddha's teachings. Is it the case that unless one's understanding is perfect, one might as well not have bothered?
It's not like one is said to be better off if one doesn't bother at all.
Everything has a cost.
I'm not sure I follow here. Pondera's original claim was (presumably following the Talaputa and Yodhajiva suttas) that misunderstanding the Dhamma leads inevitably to hell. If that's true, then the possibility of going to hell due to not hearing or attempting to understand it seems the lesser of two evils. That way, I might escape it.
And it's not like the stay in hell is forever. We're talking here about thousands and thousands of rebirths. And if 20% of them are in hell, it's still not much.
I'm a bit of a wimp when it comes to aeons in hell, I confess... :embarassed:
If the quest for finding out whether ignorance (of the Dhamma) is a sufficient or a necessary condition for rebirth in hell is motivated by the desire to construct one's innocence, then such a quest is kammically (in terms of intention/motivation) questionable. IOW, such a quest can be motivated by the desire to find an excuse.
Yes, it can be. It can be motivated by lots of wholesome things, too.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 5363
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:37 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:54 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:45 pm
The problem is in people making claims which are faith-based sound as if they are knowledge-based.
Why would that be a problem?
Don't you believe that everyone is responsible for themselves?
The problem is that people can be deceived, or time wasted. The usual problems that attend the misrepresentation of reality. Responsibility for oneself seems to be a separate issue.
Is it? I don't normally have the patience. I tend to assume that people are pretending that they know, when they don't know.
You otherwise have good diplomatic skills ...
Well-considered and effectively deployed diplomacy is, I think, important here. The "patience" bit refers to my reluctance to explore an infinite regression too far.
What isn't faith-based?
In this context: personal experience, logic, intuition, and feelings.
One then still sets oneself up as the arbiter of the Dhamma, and specifically, as the arbiter of another person's committment to the Dhamma. That's psychologically dubious.
Well, it's subject to the usual caveats around dealing with other people, but I don't have any issues with that. Providing one exercises circumspection, there's nothing wrong with knowing when people are either lying or bullshitting, or speaking in good faith.

binocular
Posts: 6328
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by binocular » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:47 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:25 pm
I'm not sure I follow here. Pondera's original claim was (presumably following the Talaputa and Yodhajiva suttas) that misunderstanding the Dhamma leads inevitably to hell. If that's true, then the possibility of going to hell due to not hearing or attempting to understand it seems the lesser of two evils. That way, I might escape it.
Clearly, you're too late for that.
Here's your chance to overcome wimpiness in regard to aeons of hell!
:woohoo:
If the quest for finding out whether ignorance (of the Dhamma) is a sufficient or a necessary condition for rebirth in hell is motivated by the desire to construct one's innocence, then such a quest is kammically (in terms of intention/motivation) questionable. IOW, such a quest can be motivated by the desire to find an excuse.
Yes, it can be. It can be motivated by lots of wholesome things, too.
Can you give an example?

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:37 pm
The problem is that people can be deceived, or time wasted. The usual problems that attend the misrepresentation of reality.

Responsibility for oneself seems to be a separate issue.
Not at all.
The whole point of being responsible for oneself is to minimize one's vulnerability to the mistakes and less than noble intentions of others.
Well-considered and effectively deployed diplomacy is, I think, important here. The "patience" bit refers to my reluctance to explore an infinite regression too far.
It's not possible to explore it "too far", it's "infinite". :reading:
Well, it's subject to the usual caveats around dealing with other people, but I don't have any issues with that. Providing one exercises circumspection, there's nothing wrong with knowing when people are either lying or bullshitting, or speaking in good faith.
Seems like an awful lot of work, investment, for very little return.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
Grigoris
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:32 pm
The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience & lack of concern.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Doesn't talk about hell. Talks about ignorance as the root cause of unskillful qualities.
upon dissolution of the body that ignorant man is born in hell.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp129-145/en/buddharakkhita
The name of the Sutta is "Violence".
This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, I have seen beings who practise misconduct by body, speech, and mind, who vilify the noble ones, who hold wrong view and perform various deeds because of their wrong view. When the body perishes, those beings are reborn after death in a state of misery, a bad bourn, a state of ruin, in hell. I say this, bhikkhus, without having learnt it from another recluse or brahmin. It is just because I myself have known it, seen it, and observed it that I say: ‘Bhikkhus, I have seen beings who practise misconduct by body, speech, and mind … reborn after death in a state of misery … in hell.’”
It is talknig about other actions too, which, of course, have ignorance as one of their causes/conditions.
An individual here with
A wrongly directed mind
Who utters wrong speech
And performs wrong deeds,
One of little learning,
Who does demerit in this short life—
Upon the perishing of the body
That foolish one is reborn in hell.''

https://suttacentral.net/iti70/en/ireland
Again, here it is talking about ignorance as the root of other unwholesome actions.

I am talking about ignorance PER SE as the cause of rebirth in hell: "You are ignorant, thus you are going to hell."

As opposed to: "Due to your ignorance, you engage in this or that behaviour thus you are going to hell."

Ignorance is the only affliction that stands alone. Aversion and attachment rely on ignorance.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 5363
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:15 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:47 pm

Clearly, you're too late for that.
Here's your chance to overcome wimpiness in regard to aeons of hell!
:woohoo:
I'll try to rise to the challenge. Maybe the metta-bhavana will help... :(
Can you give an example?
The desire to accurately reflect what the Buddha actually said, or the desire to free oneself from a paralysing self-doubt, or the desire to encourage others with study and practice of the Dhamma, etc.
The whole point of being responsible for oneself is to minimize one's vulnerability to the mistakes and less than noble intentions of others.
Sorry, I don't see it that way. Nor do I see the relevance here. Feel free to start another thread if you think it important.
It's not possible to explore it "too far", it's "infinite". :reading:
The regression might be, but my interest in it is certainly not.
Seems like an awful lot of work, investment, for very little return.
The exact reverse, as far as I'm concerned. Depending on context I can usually make a quick and reasonable judgement as to whether someone is a time-waster or a bullshitter or has bad intentions, and that saves an enormous amount of time and effort. Conversely, knowing when people are speaking from the heart has led me to many profitable short-cuts.

User avatar
Antaradhana
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:56 pm
Location: Saratov, Russia

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:02 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:41 pm
We're talking here about thousands and thousands of rebirths. And if 20% of them are in hell, it's still not much.
20% - is very optimistic, rather 99.9999999999% if we talk about the three lower worlds in general.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/bodhi
https://suttacentral.net/sn56-pancagatipeyyalavagga

Based on these suttas, it follows that an absolutely overwhelming number of beings fall into the lower worlds and are born there again and again. Because of this sansara is terrible. There are more ants in a small grove than people on the whole Earth.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 6157
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Aloka » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:12 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:02 am

I've heard there are different torments in hell, not all hellish torments are equal.
Image

Image

Image

Image


:shock:

.

rolling_boulder
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:01 am

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by rolling_boulder » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:01 pm

Respectfully,

Those who do not understand the teaching is actually most of us. Most of us do not personally know about life after death, etc. We only take it on faith.

I think everyone in this thread is forgetting the second and under appreciated part of the Kalama Sutta.
"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of greed, devoid of ill will, undeluded, alert, & resolute — keeps pervading the first direction [the east] — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

[repeat for compassion, appreciation, and equanimity]

"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires four assurances in the here-&-now:

"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.

"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.

"'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance he acquires.

"'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects.' This is the fourth assurance he acquires.

"One who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires these four assurances in the here-&-now."
Mundane Right View here is not given as a requisite for a good rebirth.
To me this strongly implies a good rebirth is possible for non-buddhists as long as they will no evil and don't live an immoral life.

Your dhamma friend
RB
The world is swept away. It does not endure...
The world is without shelter, without protector...
The world is without ownership. One has to pass on, leaving everything behind...
The world is insufficient, insatiable, a slave to craving.

santa100
Posts: 3580
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by santa100 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:54 am

SarathW wrote:What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?
For instance some think self view is just a strategy...
Depends on how the person puts it and in what context. For example, if someone says: "The Buddha taught that self view is just a strategy", but s/he never provides any specific quote or sutta to back that up, then clearly that individual's committed false speech and will bear the corresponded negative kamma (some were mentioned in MN 135/136, but for any more specific details, one would need to develop the iddhi of seeing people's past lives to know for sure). But in the case someone who did provide source/sutta/reference and then said something like: "Base on such and such source/sutta/reference, my interpretation would be that self view is just a strategy [and that's just my interpretation]", then that should be ok because: 1. The person did provide backup references and 2. Even if s/he understands it wrong, at least s/he's honestly said that it's his interpretation, not what the Buddha said, hence opening up opportunities for further discussions and a better chance of getting closer to the truth.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5418
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:47 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:51 pm

I am talking about ignorance PER SE as the cause of rebirth in hell: "You are ignorant, thus you are going to hell."

As opposed to: "Due to your ignorance, you engage in this or that behaviour thus you are going to hell."

Ignorance is the only affliction that stands alone. Aversion and attachment rely on ignorance.
My impression is you are talking about something that does not exist. MN 9 says ignorance arises together with asava or oozing out of defilements. Unlikely ignorance can exist alone, without producing other mentality. Your idea of ignorance appears extremely static. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 6157
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by Aloka » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:39 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:42 am
What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?
Possibly a realm called "Muddled Thinking," rather than extremes of torture, fire and brimstone!



.

SarathW
Posts: 11781
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:58 am

Aloka wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:39 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:42 am
What is the destination of the people who get Buddha's teachings wrong?
Possibly a realm called "Muddled Thinking," rather than extremes of torture, fire and brimstone!



.
:rofl:
Yep.
I visit that realm very often.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chownah, Google [Bot], mikenz66, seeker242, TRobinson465 and 137 guests