Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:57 am
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:59 pm
... in concepts like cessation, Vedic intrusion is rampant :candle:
:shrug: Please explain... thanks
Please make another topic to discuss this....discussing this will likely be the end of discussion on the topic of this thread.
chownah

Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:54 am

Chownah wrote
I think this sutta does not say when the buddha first attained jhanas two through four but it certainly says that the buddha attained first jhana as a child.....well before he approached his teachers.
Dear Chownah: The sutta refers to the four Rupa jhanas, and the events critical to his awakening, which take place within forth jhana. It is possible that Gotama experienced jhanas 2 and 3 before that particular night, of awakening. Are you implying that he was familiar with these four Rupa jhanas while he was with the two teachers, and the teachers knew of those too? To me then the events of Buddha's awakening do not make sense,
and If so are you implying the teachers were aware of 4 truths, and DO also?

Let me present the data in a different way. The teachers were familiar with the Arupa jhanas, which guaranteed entry to the Brahma worlds. Gotama was very impressed by this fact, which he expressed.
But Brahma world was not his goal, Gotama did not believe being born in the brahma world lead to an end of suffering.
So to that extent, Gotama was disappointed in these teachers. Yet he cared for these teachers deeply, for upon awakening, those are first two people he wanted to teach, and was disappointed to find, that they had died.
Regarding the first jhana, pl give the sutta another read.
It happened when he was a child, but he had entirely forgotten it, so that was of no use in getting to steps seven and eight.
He only recovered that memory much later, towards the end of
his ascetic practice, long after he had left the teachers. When he recalled it, he realized that he could not pursue it unless he gave up ascetic practices. At this point it enabled him turn his memory into a new experience, to intensify and
transform it, and work through Rupa jhanas 2-4 as reported
. :candle:

auto
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by auto » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:12 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:54 am
his ascetic practice, long after he had left the teachers. When he recalled it, he realized that he could not pursue it unless he gave up ascetic practices. At this point it enabled him turn his memory into a new experience, to intensify and
transform it, and work through Rupa jhanas 2-4 as reported[/b]. :candle:
he still went for 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana. The bliss from 1st jhana weren't the target. What he previously lacked was knowledge and vision of the ariya/noble birth - alamariyañāṇadassanavisesaṃ.

That there are distinction between jhana types is not a secret, it echos in internet everywhere.
When my mind had immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward recollection of past lives. o evaṃ samāhite citte parisuddhe pariyodāte anaṅgaṇe vigatūpakkilese mudubhūte kammaniye ṭhite āneñjappatte pubbenivāsānussatiñāṇāya cittaṃ abhininnāmesiṃ.
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/ā/āneñja
āneñjaBuddhist Dictionary by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA
āneñja:'imperturbability',denotes the immaterial sphere (arūpāvacara; s. avacara); s. saṅkhāra. cf. M. 106.
i think ascetics took their mind as their self hence their practice lead to rebirth on these realms instead of their minds coming imperturbable.


in short, ariya jhana. Buddha were at that time unawakened bodhisatta. The third ariya jhana has a special name too.

Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:04 pm

Auto what you say makes perfect sense.
Thank you :candle:

chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:21 am

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:54 am
Chownah wrote
I think this sutta does not say when the buddha first attained jhanas two through four but it certainly says that the buddha attained first jhana as a child.....well before he approached his teachers.
Dear Chownah: The sutta refers to the four Rupa jhanas, and the events critical to his awakening, which take place within forth jhana. It is possible that Gotama experienced jhanas 2 and 3 before that particular night, of awakening. Are you implying that he was familiar with these four Rupa jhanas while he was with the two teachers, and the teachers knew of those too? To me then the events of Buddha's awakening do not make sense,
and If so are you implying the teachers were aware of 4 truths, and DO also?

Let me present the data in a different way. The teachers were familiar with the Arupa jhanas, which guaranteed entry to the Brahma worlds. Gotama was very impressed by this fact, which he expressed.
But Brahma world was not his goal, Gotama did not believe being born in the brahma world lead to an end of suffering.
So to that extent, Gotama was disappointed in these teachers. Yet he cared for these teachers deeply, for upon awakening, those are first two people he wanted to teach, and was disappointed to find, that they had died.
Regarding the first jhana, pl give the sutta another read.
It happened when he was a child, but he had entirely forgotten it, so that was of no use in getting to steps seven and eight.
He only recovered that memory much later, towards the end of
his ascetic practice, long after he had left the teachers. When he recalled it, he realized that he could not pursue it unless he gave up ascetic practices. At this point it enabled him turn his memory into a new experience, to intensify and
transform it, and work through Rupa jhanas 2-4 as reported
. :candle:
Generally I do not imply things. I think that implying things should be explicitly stated as an implication and also I think that an implication should point to a possibility but not to a declaration of fact.....in other words it is my view that if words imply something it means that the words point to a possibility which the discussion has not ruled out explicitly.

In discussing what the suttas contain I generally follow this advice given by the buddha amd after having studied word by word I point out what I see as being explicitly declared and what possibilities are implied by not having been ruled out by thte explicit declarations:
In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline.
My reading of the sutta is that it does not say when the buddha learned the rupas but it does say that he had some knowledge and experience with at least some of the rupas at a young age. For me an implication is that the words do not rule out that after the incident in his youth which he remembered that he had further experiences with the rupas. Should we believe that for some strange reason there was this surprising occurance in his youth and that it was an isolated occurance?....or should we believe that it is likely that all insight did not stop with that occurance and that insight did advance for two or three decades? These are possible things which are not ruled out by what is in the sutta.
Further, the buddha's self assessment seems to indicate a person with some considerable experience in concentration when he compares his qualities with the same qualities as his teachers...although he does not indicate if he thinks he has them to the same extent or not. What might be the basis for this self view which he states? It implies that he did have some kind of experience with concentration above that of the usual (it seems obvious that he die in that he experienced jhana as a youth which is above the usual) and the possibililty that it could have come from his having learned more of the rupas in the time between his youth and his encounter with his teachers....but....this is simply something which the sutta does not rule out by explicit declarations.

I could go on with this to cover the entirety of what is said in the sutta but I hope that what I have given shows my ideas about what is "implied" and my views on what is not explicitly ruled out by the sutta.
chownah

Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:49 am

Dear Chownah, the sequence of events in MN 36 reads like this, sometime after Gotama had left the two teachers
But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?'
"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation
.
He retrieved this memory only after the ascetic practices failed to yield results, not while Gotama was with the teachers. If you have the BB copy, pl check the footnotes. BB gives a description of his father's harvest
festival, and how the attendants had found him sitting
cross legged, in meditation. The incident was reported to his father.
He was a chid then based on the description.
Again this is a memory he retrieved after leaving the two teachers.
Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.
'
At this point the five monks leave him.
"So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
This was the remembrance of the first jhana.
After he retrieved that memory, the description of the events are as below.
With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance.
This was the second jhana.
But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained equanimous, mindful, & alert, and sensed pleasure with the body. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain
With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability,
This was the forth jhana
I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
and the sutta continues with the remaining description ...
According to the sutta 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhanas followed on the heels of the
first jhana.
:candle:

chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:19 am

Pulsar wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:49 am
Dear Chownah, the sequence of events in MN 36 reads like this,
......
......
and the sutta continues with the remaining description ...
According to the sutta 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhanas followed on the heels of the
first jhana.
:candle:
I appreciate the effort to bring the excerpts and present your discussion.
I think I have not disagreed with anything you present here. I think it is clear that the buddha found that the arupas he learned were not conducive to the goal and that what he did at the time of achieving the goal was to attain the rupas in order. I think I have said as much previously.
The point I was discussing was whether the buddha had attained the rupas before he went to his teachers where he attained two arupas. I believe that you said he had not attained the rupas before he went to his teachers....I tried to show that your views on this were not supported in the sutta and I continue in this belief.
Are you of the view that the buddha attained the goal at the very first time he attained the four jhanas? I see nothing in the sutta which indicates this and I see nothing in the sutta which says that he did not attain the four jhanas previous to the time when he did attain them and attained the goal.
chownah
edit: I see now that perhaps I disagree with your description of fourth jhana....it was my take on the text that what you describe happened after the fourth jhana and not that it constituted the fourth jhana.....but I very well may be mistaken in that I did not read this part of the text carefully....I'll go read it again.
chownah
edit: I just looked and it says:
I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
....and then after this it talks about what you quote as fourth jhana (and many other things that arose aswell). It seems to me that fourth jhana was attained and then the buddha made good use of it by directing his mind appropriately. Does this mean that this direction of mind always happens in fourth jhana?....it seems to me that this is not the case because the attaining of fourth jhana is presented as having been accomplished in the discreet description in the paragraph before it is presented that the buddha directed his mind thus and so.
As you can see, I have fabricated my views on fourth jhana so that it supports my views overall....this really could just be bias on my part....anyway....none of this is explicitly stated in the suttas and I am only suggesting it as a possibilty which has not been disallowed by the sutta.
chownah

Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:08 am

I like to get back to a small reintroduction on the 4 jhanas that lead to the awakening. We can revisit the subject of, how Buddha awoke later.
At the beginning I had said that I will try to simplify, make it practical this form of buddhist meditation
To begin,
quieten the mind of things that force in through the sense doors. sight, sound, like music that haunts you from last night, and imagination, these whirling
thoughts, of residual activity. Truths do not manifest unless all else is quiet, all other quests and doubts in the mind need to be silenced
Find quite place, by now you have removed the nivaranas, only slight traces of interference in the mind.
    almost effortlessly you are in the first meditation
      you still have thoughts and reflections, this is Ok, maybe it is on breath, or some other thought.
      Now there are various metaphors for this first meditation/jhana in VSM,
      but let us come up with our own.
      Imagine you are revisiting the river near your home, one you always go to, when you need the solace of quiet.
      it is a darkening day,
      • small rain drops hit the river surface

      and
      • each rain drop sends a ripple through river surface

      there is enough light for you to observe this.
      With time rain ends, no more drops impacting the river, but the
      • rippling effect remains through the river body
      like a suffusion,
      after a while even that gradually ends, because there are no drops hitting the river.
      That would be the end of vitaka, vicara, simplified.
      Imagine your mental body is the river. At this point it seems like the
      river stops flowing, neither is it frozen.
      This would be the border between first and second jhana.
      What is happening to you also, is that
      • self identification is gradually coming to a halt

      now right here, you can dwell in first jhana,
      and explore the beauty of loss of identification.
      whether this happens for ten min, or a whole day, you are on the road to internal exploration.
      This would be first jhana simplified. If not for anything else, you have silenced your mind of all nagging worries, you have purified the mind.
      I will comment about the second meditation as I find time.
      An elegant Sunday to all! :candle:
      Last edited by Pulsar on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

      Pulsar
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      Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

      Post by Pulsar » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:09 am

      Dear MarioK: I am sorry it took this long, but I hope the above comment helps, with your meditaion. Pl. let me
      know. :heart:

      Pulsar
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      Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

      Post by Pulsar » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:21 pm

      Dear Chownah. I wanted to add this note, it may seem irrelevant in relation to the four rupa jhanas, but it is very much so, on further examination. There is seeming overlap in the Buddha's teaching and teachings of other sects, but the one place it differs radically is in the attitude to notion of self.
      The four buddhist meditations are a conduit to distancing one from the notion of self,
      for it is only then the buddhist truths manifest, like DO and 4 NT. :heart:

      chownah
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      Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

      Post by chownah » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:13 pm

      Pulsar wrote:
      Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:21 pm
      Dear Chownah. I wanted to add this note, it may seem irrelevant in relation to the four rupa jhanas, but it is very much so, on further examination. There is seeming overlap in the Buddha's teaching and teachings of other sects, but the one place it differs radically is in the attitude to notion of self.
      The four buddhist meditations are a conduit to distancing one from the notion of self,
      for it is only then the buddhist truths manifest, like DO and 4 NT. :heart:
      Thanks for what you have said. I assume by "the four buddhist meditations" that you talking about the rupa jhanas.....There are also other meditations which can help in seeing the delusions we have of a self....

      On another topic: I thought you might be interested in this excerpt from MN 43 PTS: M i 292
      Mahavedalla Sutta: The Greater Set of Questions-and-Answers:
      https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-6
      The eye of discernment
      "Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties?"

      "Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'

      "With what does one know a quality that can be known?"

      "One knows a quality that can be known with the eye of discernment."

      "And what is the purpose of discernment?"

      "The purpose of discernment is direct knowledge, its purpose is full comprehension, its purpose is abandoning."
      I brought the entire section of the eye of discernment but it is the part which seems to be talking about three of the arupas which caught my interest.
      chownah
      Last edited by retrofuturist on Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
      Reason: link fixed

      Pulsar
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      Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

      Post by Pulsar » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:38 am

      Chownah wrote
      "There are also other meditations which can help in seeing the delusions we have of a self"
      This is very true. Sariputta engaged in meditation of the 7 enlightenment factors. Both methods involve mindfulness, Pasadhi, Equanimity and Dhamma vicaya.
      In several places in the canon including in AN 7.55 one finds this passage.
      Here a person is practicing thus: "It might not be and it will not be mine. It will not be, it will not be mine. I am abandoning what exists, what has come to be"
      It is a simple meditation, but to see through it clearly one needs mental clarity, during this contemplation.
      BB footnotes to AN 7.55 say
      In the nikayas the precise meaning of the formula is never made explicit, which suggests that it may have served as an open guide to contemplation to be filled by the meditator through personal intuition
      Some time ago when I was not familiar with jhana I used the poems of Parayanavagga as methods of contemplation. Later when I learnt the instruction was about the 4 jhanas, it made sense.
      Teachings communicated through simple poems.
      PS In the foot note to AN 7.55, BB explains that meditation in greater detail.
      I will address the second point later. :candle:

      Pulsar
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      Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

      Post by Pulsar » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:23 pm

      Chownah wrote
      The eye of discernment
      "Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties?"
      "Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'

      "With what does one know a quality that can be known?"

      "One knows a quality that can be known with the eye of discernment."

      "And what is the purpose of discernment?"

      "The purpose of discernment is direct knowledge, its purpose is full comprehension, its purpose is abandoning."
      I brought the entire section of the eye of discernment but it is the part which seems to be talking about three of the arupas which caught my interest.
      chownah
      Dear Chownah: you used an excerpt from MN 43, which tells me you are familiar with the sutta, an ideal sutta for the thread, for here is a discussion between MahaKotthita the greatest analyst of Dhamma and Sariputta who needs no introduction.
      Between the two of them they are
      analyzing the 4th rupa jhana here
      which in some discussions is called the
      Purified mind consciousness
      some call it imperturbable state, because at this point senses are not impacted, neither are they blocked.
      The consciousness of the 4th stage can know the immaterial attainments in so far as one established in the 4th jhana can reach them. Pl. read the footnote 437 in BB Middle Length Discourses, it just about says the same.
      Immaterial/arupa can be achieved within
      the 4th rupa jhana, where the Buddha attained the different knowledges. There is a difference between what a learner and an Arahant can attain, in terms of knowledge.
      At the peak of fine-material realm is an elegantly polished immaterial realm. It is part of 4th jhana,
      eye of wisdom is gained. The purpose of wisdom is direct knowledge (abhinna) its purpose is full understanding (parinna) only the Arahant gains the latter, the full understanding. :candle:
      To accomplish Satiptthana or Anapanasathi fully, four rupa jhana meditation is mandatory.

      chownah
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      Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

      Post by chownah » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:44 am

      pulsar,
      I see that I put the wrong link into my previous post....I am trying to get it fixed.
      Sorry,
      chownah
      p.s. I'll respond to your post later.
      chownah

      chownah
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      Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

      Post by chownah » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:06 pm

      Pulsar wrote:
      Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:23 pm
      Chownah wrote
      The eye of discernment
      "Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties?"
      "Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'

      "With what does one know a quality that can be known?"

      "One knows a quality that can be known with the eye of discernment."

      "And what is the purpose of discernment?"

      "The purpose of discernment is direct knowledge, its purpose is full comprehension, its purpose is abandoning."
      I brought the entire section of the eye of discernment but it is the part which seems to be talking about three of the arupas which caught my interest.
      chownah
      Dear Chownah: you used an excerpt from MN 43, which tells me you are familiar with the sutta, an ideal sutta for the thread, for here is a discussion between MahaKotthita the greatest analyst of Dhamma and Sariputta who needs no introduction.
      Between the two of them they are
      analyzing the 4th rupa jhana here
      The rest of your post seems to deal with things not specifically in mn43 and perhaps I'll mention some of them later and probably I'll be asking for some sutta which substantiates those things....and if you can bring the relevant BB excerpt I would be glad to see it....the only references I have are on the internet and I haven't been able to find it on the internet.

      As to the part of your post I have shown above: I don't see that what you say is supported in the sutta itself. They never explicitly introduce the fourth jhana in this sutta except for one place where it is in the list of four conditions needed for the neither pleasant nor painful awareness release.

      The section titled "Awareness Release" contains many different kinds of awareness realeases and for each one it tells the conditions needed to attain that kind of awareness release. Of all of the kinds of awareness releases listed it is ONLY the neither pleasant nor painfull awareness release which has fourth jhana as a condition....no jhana is listed as a condition necessary for any of the other kinds of awareness releases.

      One of the kinds of awareness release given is the nothingness awareness release. I'll bring that excerpt here:
      And what is the nothingness awareness-release? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is called the nothingness awareness-release.
      Jhana is not mentioned with respect to these releases....and note that these awareness releases correspond to two of the arupas.

      Also, you mention the "imperturbable state". Here is a sutta which talks about the imperturbable as meaning the four jhanas plus the first two arupas.
      [urlhttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn. ... .html#fn-1][/url]
      chownah

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