Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

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SDC
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by SDC » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:54 pm

Let's all get back to the topic at hand, please. If this thread has reached the point of casual talk, perhaps it has run its course.

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DooDoot
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:30 am

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:47 pm
This is simply your opinion.
Its not my opinion. I quoted the suttas many times. Why are you ignoring what is written in the suttas?
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:47 pm
Buddha spoke of Mundane vs Supramundane when it came to the Noble path.
No. No. No.

The Buddha never ever spoke of a "Mundane Noble Path". The mundane path in MN 117 is not "Noble". The word "Supramundane" is synonymous with "Noble".
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:47 pm
Is there a human and superhuman Noble path?
Yes. As the suttas say, the Noble Path is Superhuman.
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:47 pm
If so it is not in the translations I read.
You obviously did not read accurately. To support your statement, please quote what you read, with a link. Thank you
Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:47 pm
As for the discussion on Jhana, it is undertaken only in relation to the Noble path, as taught by Buddha.
The impression is you are not posting about real jhana. It appears likely you are imagining your meditation activities to be jhana.

Kind regards :smile:
SDC wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:54 pm
Let's all get back to the topic at hand, please. If this thread has reached the point of casual talk, perhaps it has run its course.
The topic was answered & concluded, here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34797#p520271
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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SDC
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by SDC » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:30 am
SDC wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:54 pm
Let's all get back to the topic at hand, please. If this thread has reached the point of casual talk, perhaps it has run its course.
The topic was answered & concluded, here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34797#p520271
I wish I had 8 hands because 2 thumbs just isn't enough.....

:twothumbsup:

[fireworks]*[/endfireworks]

chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:30 am
As the suttas say, the Noble Path is Superhuman.
The suttas don't say this.....how could they when there is no word in pali which can be credibly translated as "Superhuman" as evidenced by the definitions you brought which do not contain "superhuman" in them. Using the word "superhuman" the way you do is just your fabicated construal.
chownah

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:42 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:55 am
The suttas don't say this.....how could they when there is no word in pali which can be credibly translated as "Superhuman" as evidenced by the definitions you brought which do not contain "superhuman" in them. Using the word "superhuman" the way you do is just your fabicated construal.
chownah
OK. So is Chownah claiming to know Pali better than Bhikkhus Bodhi, Thanissaro & Sujato? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:15 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:42 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:55 am
The suttas don't say this.....how could they when there is no word in pali which can be credibly translated as "Superhuman" as evidenced by the definitions you brought which do not contain "superhuman" in them. Using the word "superhuman" the way you do is just your fabicated construal.
chownah
OK. So is Chownah claiming to know Pali better than Bhikkhus Bodhi, Thanissaro & Sujato? :shrug:
heavens no......I'm claiming to know the english language better than they do!....they should be using the term "supernormal" since clearly jhana is beyond the normal state of the typical human but since it is a human who attains jhana it is clearly a human state and not a superhuman state.....and.....so far you have not brought a credible pali dictionary showing a pali word which is translated as "superhuman"....so....I guess that the use of the word "superhuman" is bodhi, thanissaro, and sujato's fabricated construal......

THere is no credible pali dictionary which has a pali word which is transalated as "superhuman" that I know of.....
chownah

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:33 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:42 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:55 am
The suttas don't say this.....how could they when there is no word in pali which can be credibly translated as "Superhuman" as evidenced by the definitions you brought which do not contain "superhuman" in them. Using the word "superhuman" the way you do is just your fabicated construal.
chownah
OK. So is Chownah claiming to know Pali better than Bhikkhus Bodhi, Thanissaro & Sujato? :shrug:
My first reply to this was done to hastily......I (in my haste) just believed that you were fairly representing thanissaro's position on this.....but having more time now and coming to the realization that you have presented nothing of thanissaro's which used the term "superhuman" I thought I would go find what where he did refer to "superhuman".....and.....this is what I found:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Wri ... 8Faith.pdf
This is a transcript of a dhamma talk given by thanissaro on april 8, 2017....you can find the audio presentation quite easily...just search for thanissaro dhama talks and look through the archive.
Yes, we live in a world where people can gain awakening through their own efforts, and it doesn’t require anything superhuman.
Doodoot,
I'm really disappointed in how you have (seemingly) misrepresented thanissaro's views on this issue.
chownah

Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:29 pm

SDC thank you very much for your efforts to diffuse the volatility of the thread. I appreciate all the moderators of DW, who spend time monitoring these threads, on Dhamma. You are the sentinels helping to carry the torch of the Buddha. Go ahead and lock the thread if you think that is the only way to stop the turbulence.
I have little experience on DW yet, or how to handle my own post and the ensuing discussion, peacefully.
I wanted to create awareness of buddhist jhanas for the curious mind, and of how meditation was practiced during Buddha's time. Jhana if explored, is an efficient way to gain insight. Buddhist 4 jhanas were not meant to block senses, as pre buddhist meditations were designed to do, like what Alara Kalama or Uddaka Rama Puttha practiced.
Chownah thank you for that statement by Thannisaro.
Yes, we live in a world where people can gain awakening through their own efforts, and it doesn’t require anything superhuman

sigh of relief!

One's own efforts, so true. At the beginning the sitting can be as short as ten min. In a few places in the canon there is a reference to 5 Step Rupa Jhana. It is this obscure jhana that enabled me to get a foothold on this method of meditation. There are gems hidden in the canon. Stangely they are not oft repeated, yet it is there.
In this method the first jhana is split into two steps, so it is called 5 step rupa jhana.
It is really not hard to engage in these, at least up until the 3rd jhana. The 3rd and 4th of the 4 rupa jhanas are called subtle states, there one needs more experience. The first and second of the 4 Rupa jhanas are gross states.
if the discussion becomes peaceful, pulsar will comment over time, for those interested. If not pl lock the thread :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:16 pm

DooDoot wrote
The topic was answered & concluded, here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34797#p520271
But DooDoot is quoting from a sutta where 4 arahants (Buddha, Ven Anuruddha, Nandiya and Kimbila) are engaged in a discussion i.e. Culagosinga Sutta. I agree that the Jhana the Arahants engage in is, of the Lokuttara path/or superhuman.
Pulsar is not superhuman, he/she is talking of meditations (the 4 rupa jhanas) that can be practiced at the worldly level. How can one get to the superhuman level, unless one practices at the human level/the mundane Path.
Did Buddha present a Path to the world that cannot be practiced by the mortal human?

PS To tell you a story that DooDoot did not tell you,
it is also true that the same three Arahants were practicing jhana at a human level before becoming superhuman. If you read MN 128 the sutta speaks of Buddha visiting them, and asking these same monks the same question.
Good Good Anuruddha ...have you attained any superhuman states, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the Noble ones, a comfortable abiding?
and they answer in the negative. They were not Arahants yet, but they were practicing the jhanas. Were they not? What do you call that kind of jhana? Is it not Mundane or normal human jhana? :heart:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

MarioK
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by MarioK » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:40 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:29 pm
In this method the first jhana is split into two steps, so it is called 5 step rupa jhana.
It is really not hard to engage in these, at least up until the 3rd jhana. The 3rd and 4th of the 4 rupa jhanas are called subtle states, there one needs more experience. The first and second of the 4 Rupa jhanas are gross states.
if the discussion becomes peaceful, pulsar will comment over time, for those interested. If not pl lock the thread :candle:
Dear Pulsar, as I did not post anything at all since I registered (english is not my mother tongue) I am not able to write PMs... Hence, this way: I am eager to hear more of these 5 steps method. Where in the canon can I find these? How do you do it?

:heart: Mario

chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:34 am

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:16 pm
If you read MN 128 the sutta speaks of Buddha visiting them, and asking these same monks the same question.
Good Good Anuruddha ...have you attained any superhuman states, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the Noble ones, a comfortable abiding?
and they answer in the negative.
When I find mn128 on the internet it seems to me that they answer in the affirmative....can you provide a link and the excerpt which supports what you say?
chownah

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:56 am

Chownah wrote
When I find MN 128 on the internet it seems to me that they answer in the affirmative....can you provide a link and the excerpt which supports what you say?
Can you link me to the sutta you find on internet? I have the text of Ven BB. I summarized the conversation
between the Buddha and and the non-Arahanats.
The story is about the monks struggling to enter jhana. The entire section is about the obstacles they face while trying to enter jhana. Do you figure that much? Does this not lead one to the conclusion that they are unable to reach a supernatural jhana?
In the story Buddha ends up explaining to them the method
he used to enter jhana. You notice that much, right? So again does this not lead
one to that conclusion?
I know that Analayo's translation is available on the web. Do you want a link to agama
translations? It is something one concludes by following the content of
the story? It will eat up time to copy BB's translation from the text. :candle:

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:04 am

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:56 am
Chownah wrote
When I find MN 128 on the internet it seems to me that they answer in the affirmative....can you provide a link and the excerpt which supports what you say?
Can you link me to the sutta you find on internet? I have the text of Ven BB. I summarized the conversation
between the Buddha and and the non-Arahanats.
The story is about the monks struggling to enter jhana. The entire section is about the obstacles they face while trying to enter jhana. Do you figure that much? Does this not lead one to the conclusion that they are unable to reach a supernatural jhana?
In the story Buddha ends up explaining to them the method
he used to enter jhana. You notice that much, right? So again does this not lead
one to that conclusion?
I know that Analayo's translation is available on the web. Do you want a link to agama
translations? It is something one concludes by following the content of
the story? It will eat up time to copy BB's translation from the text. :candle:
Here is a link to MN128.
https://suttacentral.net/mn128/en/sujato
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:14 am

MarioK wrote How do you practice?
How I approached the jhanas, patiently, let me explain.
Initially I wanted to ignore jhanas, since the general consensus was these were too hard,
but then I realized, I was leaving out a crucial part of the practice, the steps that lead one to insight
Have you practiced the seven enligtenment factors, and Satipatthana? If you have practiced these over a period of time, which Pulsar did, then it is time to combine these with 4 Rupa jhanas.
You must not worry about the 4 Arupa meditations listed after the 4 jhanas, in some places of the canon.
All you basically need is the first four, because these are the only jhanas that helped Buddha with his awakening MN 125.
Dear MarioK Are you familiar with the Four Step Rupa jhana method, meaning have you read those carefully? If so, the extra step in Five step method is simply a case of splitting the first step into two steps, that makes it easier for the beginner.
It is nicely explained in Atthasalini, which is found on the web. If I give you a link to the text, can you access it? When you go over the factors of jhana, carefully at first, you realize they are quite similar to enlightenment factors.
Mindfulness is found in both, also in Satipathana sutta. Pasadhi or serenity is found in jhana and enlightenment factors.
Likewise equanimity is common to both. In the 4th jhana one kind of engages in Dhamma investigation, when the mind is extremely quiet, so one's own thoughts do not interfere with that investigation. This requires patience,
Practice this way over time leads to small dozes of insight, and at this stage if you re-read the suttas they will appear in a new light. That was my biggest reward, the ability know what Buddha meant, so you incorprate new elements into your practice.

Dhamma Vicaya is the second of the seven enlightenment factors, a bit like what happens in 4th jhana. the difference is in 4th jhana there is perfect equanimity, Upeksha
parisuddhi.
The jhanas are a practice that successively completes the awakening factors, four frames of reference (Satipatthana) and the jhana practices are really a unified system of practice.
Once you reply, I will try to help, based on your current knowledge of other 37 factors of awakening.
I have given up a lot of social activity in order to maintain the frame of mind required for Jhanic meditation. It is a long term commitment.
Also as I find time, I will add comments that should help you negotiate the 4 rupa jhanas. :heart:

chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:31 am

A small excerpt from the mn128 link provided by dinsdale:
“Good, good, Anuruddha and friends! But as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a meditation at ease?”

“Well, sir, while meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, we perceive both light and vision of forms. But before long the light and the vision of forms vanish. We haven’t worked out the reason for that.”
I took "light and vision of forms" as being superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones......so I thought that this was answering in the affirmative....

For me the entire "superhuman" concept is wrong.......if you look at the link on the first page: fourth post where doodoot gave a link to something thanissaro wrote you will see that he uses "superior human state" instead of "superhuman state" (if my memory of this is correct).....thanissaro's translation clearly calls it a human state which is correct if you consider that the meditator to be human...while "superhuman state" means that the meditator was not human but rather a "superhuman".
chownah

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