Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

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Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:12 pm

Dear Chownah, no need to be sorry, in the process of our communication I will make many more mistakes,
due to faulty eyesight and just me being Pulsar ... :)
You wrote Just a quick note: the very last part of what I wrote and which you brought above (red) does not accurately say what I wanted to say. What the red text seems to imply is that "a peaceful awareness-release" means one of the arupas. This was not what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say was "so this again seems to support the idea that in the jambali sutta "a peaceful awareness-release" might apply to the arupas." The difference being that "a peaceful awareness-release" might be pointing to the arupas as well as the fourth rupa.

I'm writing this note now in the hopes of helping you avoid dealing with something I did not intend to say. I will be commenting on your post soon I hope.

Sorry to have mistakenly posted something which might have caused needless effort to dispel.
chownah
It is good that you wrote. the confusion partly arises from the way you understand Arupa as something
specifically different from Rupa, partly the Pali canon is to be faulted.
There are some things that Canon never demarcates, for instance I've seen Ven. BB himself say that
canon
never bothers to differentiate between a mundane 8-fold path and the supra-mundane 8-fold path
Of course there is the ten-fold path (MN 117 right in front of people's eyes), but one person says 'it is fake' and many believe him. Bodhi also says
the Pali canon also does not differentiate between
mundane jhana (buddhist meditation) and supra mundane jhana
So folks are confused. I understand this.
My point being Arupa is a label stuck on something. Arupa in other words is
'imageless consciousness, consciousness without labels'
One would experience this several times in a lifetime.
Just being absorbed in a sensation that arises from one's toe, or gazing at the sea.... the sound when it
arrives as if no thing is emanating it, or no one is hearing it, just the sound, i.e. an Arupa/imageless consciousness, (not subject, not object)
Like Buddha said to Bahia "in the sound is only the sound'
We all have these moments, but without training our consciousness, (via jhana) these truths
are only glimpses, these do not persist, or sustain us.
What I mean to say is, one cannot draw a distinction at the highest point of the
meditation on fine-material sphere. (i.e. 4th Jhana, or what is labelled
as a Rupa jhana) :heart:

chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:11 am

Pulsar wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:12 pm
Dear Chownah, no need to be sorry, in the process of our communication I will make many more mistakes,
due to faulty eyesight and just me being Pulsar ... :)
You wrote Just a quick note: the very last part of what I wrote and which you brought above (red) does not accurately say what I wanted to say. What the red text seems to imply is that "a peaceful awareness-release" means one of the arupas. This was not what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say was "so this again seems to support the idea that in the jambali sutta "a peaceful awareness-release" might apply to the arupas." The difference being that "a peaceful awareness-release" might be pointing to the arupas as well as the fourth rupa.

I'm writing this note now in the hopes of helping you avoid dealing with something I did not intend to say. I will be commenting on your post soon I hope.

Sorry to have mistakenly posted something which might have caused needless effort to dispel.
chownah
It is good that you wrote. the confusion partly arises from the way you understand Arupa as something
specifically different from Rupa, partly the Pali canon is to be faulted.
I have so far not really said much about my understanding of the arupas....I've tried to not inject my views into the discussion as I have been trying to determine how/if the suttas support your assertions. In doing this my views should be avoided but of course my views will influence how I interpret the suttas and which evidence given there I think is most credible.

As to the whether the arupas should be considered to be specifically different from the rupas: isn't the fact that there are two different names (rupa and arupa) used commonly in these kinds of discussions a strong indicator that there is a perceived and specific division between the two? Early on in our discussion it seemed that you were saying that you didn't think that anyone would benefit from the arupas (you requested that I tell you if I could find evidence of them helping someone...if I remember correctly) and at that time it seemed that you were considering them to be seperate from the rupas....it wasn't until later that you made a comment that the arupas were contained in the fourth jhana. I am point this out to show that (regardless of what my views might be) it seems very common for people to think of the arupas as being seperate from the rupas....and I think there is evidence that the arupas are viewed as being fundamentally different from fourth jhana in mn111 which you recently mentioned.....it seems that the dividing line between rupa and arupa is found at the beginning of the paragraph for the infinitude of space which follows the fourth jhana paragraphs...that dividing line being:
Furthermore, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity,
...that is to say that the arupas arise from the transcending of pereption of physical form (which is why they are called arupas) whereas the rupas are connected to physical form (which is why they are called rupas).

I think that you are correct in your observations that we think of these things differenty....and I think that I have so far not given my thoughts on these things but rather have (or at least tried to) stayed with what is said in the suttas and what possibilities could be seen in what it says and what things are ruled out explicitly. I think that the difference is an important one for our discussion and I'm thinking I might present and explain some of my views.....I have never really tried to explain this before so it will take some time for me to organize my thoughts and unfortunately my time on the internet will be somewhat constrained for the next few days but hopefully the issues will be resolved quickly.

Could you explain your views on how the arupas are not specifically seperate from the rupas?
chownah

chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:04 am

Just a small presentation of my views on concentration:
I think that calming the mind is the main point, purpose, or goal of concentration. I think that there is huge variability in the minds of individuals and correspondingly there will not be one best approach to calming the mind which will be best for everyone. Different people will respond differently to different mental inputs.....and I see the way that mental states are described to an individual is a very important mental input. By this I mean if an individual is instructed in how to attain mental states then the way that a mental state is explained or presented to that individual will have a strong bearing on what the individual receives from that instruction. From these views of mine I suggest that the jhana format as an instruction in concentration might not be the best format for everyone although if we take its frequent mention in the suttas as an indication it is clear that this format of instruction was highly regarded by the buddha and the compilers of the suttas.

Further, I think it is worthwhile to consider that if the jhana format of instruction for concentration is not the best approach for everyone then what other approaches might be available which are more suitable for those who do not respond well to the jhana format of instruction.

I guess what I am hinting about here is that "jhana" is a kind of presentation of a particular technique which is considered to be a potent technique....but that "jhana" is not the fruit or result of the successful application of that technique.....and also I am hinting about there being other techniques which can lead to the same fruit or result when successfully applied.
chownah

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:50 am

Dear Chownah Here is a response to your earlier comment. I just noticed there is a newer comment, I shall read and respond to it later...

Thanks for reading Anupada sutta MN 111. it is good to read a sutta of this nature, one of a kind, for anyone interested in Arupas at an academic level. What was unusual about that presentation? Can you tell me. Now when you have the time pl read Sandha sutta. AN 11.10 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Excerpts
And how is a thoroughbred absorbed? An excellent thoroughbred horse tied to the feeding trough, is not absorbed with the thought, 'Barley grain! Barley grain!' Why is that? Because as he is tied to the feeding trough, the thought occurs to him, 'I wonder what task the trainer will have me do today? What should I do in response?' Tied to the feeding trough, he is not absorbed with the thought, 'Barley grain! Barley grain!' The excellent thoroughbred horse regards the feel of the spur as a debt, an imprisonment, a loss, a piece of bad luck
He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will... sloth & drowsiness... restlessness & anxiety... uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from uncertainty once it has arisen
He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar
Can you figure out what Buddha is communicating here? The well trained mind or excellent meditator does not require instruments such as the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception for the sake of it.

The reason why I used the words Rupa and Arupa at the beginning is because that is how these things are commonly perceived by the public, in other words for effective communication, not that I think Arupas as such, or as some people understand it is necessary, for spiritual progress, in relation to MN 117
:heart:

chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:03 am

Pulsar wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:50 am
Dear Chownah Here is a response to your earlier comment. I just noticed there is a newer comment, I shall read and respond to it later...

Thanks for reading Anupada sutta MN 111. it is good to read a sutta of this nature, one of a kind, for anyone interested in Arupas at an academic level. What was unusual about that presentation?
Nothing about it struck me as being unusual in any notable way....it seems that you have something in mind....if so then please tell what it is....I have not noticed any particularly notable unusualness to mention.

I don't know what you mean by "at an academic level"....I usually consider this comment to be sort of dismissive...are you intending it that way?

I found mn111 to provide what can be considered to be stated dividing line between the rupas and the arupas...the wording "with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form" which appears between the presentation of fourth jhana and the first arupa being that dividing line....that is to say the rupas deal with perception of physical form (hence the term "rupa") and the arupas arise without the perception of physical form (hence the term "arupa"). This really does seem to be the division which gives rise to the two term (rupa and arupa).
Pulsar wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:50 am
Now when you have the time pl read Sandha sutta. AN 11.10 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Excerpts
And how is a thoroughbred absorbed? An excellent thoroughbred horse tied to the feeding trough, is not absorbed with the thought, 'Barley grain! Barley grain!' Why is that? Because as he is tied to the feeding trough, the thought occurs to him, 'I wonder what task the trainer will have me do today? What should I do in response?' Tied to the feeding trough, he is not absorbed with the thought, 'Barley grain! Barley grain!' The excellent thoroughbred horse regards the feel of the spur as a debt, an imprisonment, a loss, a piece of bad luck
He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will... sloth & drowsiness... restlessness & anxiety... uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from uncertainty once it has arisen
He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar
Can you figure out what Buddha is communicating here? The well trained mind or excellent meditator does not require instruments such as the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception for the sake of it.

The reason why I used the words Rupa and Arupa at the beginning is because that is how these things are commonly perceived by the public, in other words for effective communication, not that I think Arupas as such, or as some people understand it is necessary, for spiritual progress, in relation to MN 117
I think the buddha is saying that the inexperienced meditator is distracted with sensuality (like the colts excitement over food) and the expereinced meditator is not distracted but keeps his mind firmly upon the task of the training.

Also, I think the list of things which the thoroughbred's absorbtion is not dependent on is meant to contain all things which are perceived as being rupa and arupa and everything else....it is basically a list of every kind of thing that might have perceptions about I guess...I don't think it is a comment on the arupas specifically, they are just presented to make the list all inclusive....notice it also contains this world and the next world and the sense media and etc.
chownah
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:03 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:12 pm
There are some things that Canon never demarcates, for instance I've seen Ven. BB himself say that
canon
never bothers to differentiate between a mundane 8-fold path and the supra-mundane 8-fold path
Of course there is the ten-fold path (MN 117 right in front of people's eyes), but one person says 'it is fake' and many believe him. Bodhi also says
the Pali canon also does not differentiate between
mundane jhana (buddhist meditation) and supra mundane jhana
I think we should not attribute such a serious accusation against Bhikkhu Bodhi without providing a direct quote.
Pulsar wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:50 am
Now when you have the time pl read Sandha sutta. AN 11.10 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I read it and did not notice 'rupa jhana' mentioned in it. It says:
‘Homage to you, O thoroughbred!
‘Namo te purisājañña,

Homage to you, supreme among men!
namo te purisuttama;

We don’t understand
Yassa te nābhijānāma,

the basis of your absorption.’”
yampi nissāya jhāyasī’”ti.
:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:05 pm

Just to make it clear what I am saying about the dividing line between rupas and arupas in mn111 is clear I will present the beginning and final sentences in each of the kinds of absorptions given....and I will make what I consider to be the dividing concept in red.
There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation....
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, Sariputta entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance....
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Furthermore, with the fading of rapture, Sariputta — remaining in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure — entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' .....
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain.....
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Furthermore, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space.....
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness.....
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness.....
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception....
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. ....
He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
Since each of the absorptions are introduced the same way and since the transitioning from one absorption to another is treated in the same way (with the exception of what I call the dividing statement which I have made red) it seems that the manner of presentation seems to be showing discreet incremental steps...the rupas and the arupas are treated exactly the same with the exception of the red text which shows the change from rupa to arupa.

I see nothing which supports the idea that the arupas are contined in the fourth rupa.
chownah

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:09 pm

Chownah wrote
I don't know what you mean by "at an academic level"....I usually consider this comment to be sort of dismissive...are you intending it that way?
No do not dismiss it, I meant at a scholastic level or abhidhammic level. Notice that this sutta goes into detail about the meditation of Sariputta, an Arahant, out of the ordinary,
his level of meditation. Pl read it carefully, my take, this is not possible for the non-arahant.
Feel the elegance of his meditation, i can go into that later in more detail. I shall explain
Sandha sutta in greater detail also. It is not quite how you think, but it requires time
for me to cut and paste relevant sections.

Scholars have noted the lang. of MN 111, and a noticeable difference
in the Pali used.

To understand 4th jhana better we will have to return to MN 43 later. You will
find the answers there, once you begin to understand you will see that it is all about the fine-material jhanas, and the mental states arrived at via this kind of wise attentio, again analyzed by
two arahants, Sariputta, and his friend Maha Kotthita. Do you have access to Ven BB's hard copy
of Middle length Discourses, or a friend who can scan foot notes of Theravada commentary? I can point out which notes are relevant, I mean the numbers of those. :heart:

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:30 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:50 am
Now when you have the time pl read Sandha sutta. AN 11.10 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I am reading it now. Sandha Sutta uses the related terms 'jhāyī', 'jhāya' & 'jhāyati'. It seems these words do not necessarily refer to rupa jhana, as follows:
“Mendicants, there are these four meditators.
“Cattārome, bhikkhave, jhāyī.

What four?
Katame cattāro?

One meditator is skilled in immersion but not in remaining in it.
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco jhāyī samādhismiṃ samādhikusalo hoti, na samādhismiṃ ṭhitikusalo.

One meditator is skilled in remaining in immersion but is not skilled in immersion.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco jhāyī samādhismiṃ ṭhitikusalo hoti, na samādhismiṃ samādhikusalo.

One meditator is skilled neither in immersion nor in remaining in it :shock: .
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco jhāyī neva samādhismiṃ samādhikusalo hoti, na ca samādhismiṃ ṭhitikusalo.

One meditator is skilled both in immersion and in remaining in it.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco jhāyī samādhismiṃ samādhikusalo ca hoti, samādhismiṃ ṭhitikusalo ca.

https://suttacentral.net/sn34.2/en/sujato
Saṅkappehi
pareto so,
kapaṇo viya jhāyati;
Sutvā paresaṃ nigghosaṃ,
maṅku hoti tathāvidho.

Overcome by (lustful) thoughts,
that one broods :? as a beggar does,
and hearing reproach of others, then
such a person is depressed.

https://suttacentral.net/snp4.7/en/mills
I read Sandha Sutta and did not notice 'rupa jhana' mentioned in it. It says:
‘Homage to you, O thoroughbred!
‘Namo te purisājañña,

Homage to you, supreme among men!
namo te purisuttama;

We don’t understand
Yassa te nābhijānāma,

the basis of your absorption.’”
yampi nissāya jhāyasī’”ti.
It seems the Sandha Sutta is referring to absorption (jhāyati) in the non-attached Nibbana rather than rupa jhana.
Pulsar wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:09 pm
I shall explain Sandha sutta in greater detail also
So far, your explanations appear contrary to the Sandha Sutta.
Pulsar wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:09 pm
Scholars have noted the lang. of MN 111, and a noticeable difference in the Pali used.
The elegant beauty of MN 111 is it shows Sariputta was not attached to jhana. After each rupa-jhana and after each immaterial sphere, MN 111 beautifully says:
And he meditated without attraction or repulsion for those phenomena; independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits.

So tesu dhammesu anupāyo anapāyo anissito appaṭibaddho vippamutto visaṃyutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.

He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond.’

So ‘atthi uttari nissaraṇan’ti pajānāti.
Possibly the scholars disparaging MN 111 are 'jhana-clingers'; similar to the disparagers of MN 117 who try to assert 'karma & rebirth' is the True Dhamma.

:smile:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:23 pm

Chownah wrote
I think the buddha is saying that the inexperienced meditator is distracted with sensuality (like the colts excitement over food) and the expereinced meditator is not distracted but keeps his mind firmly upon the task of the training
true, basically to summarize, the Buddha says the thoroughbred colt AKA any meditator who has entered the noble path, steam entry up, does not rely on crutches, such as kasinas i.e. earth, water, air, and fire and neither on what is implied as arupas in the canon.
But we can discuss Sandha sutta again later. There is a group of suttas of this category, and when you discuss it as a group,
it will make a whole lot of sense...
Also later when I get time, I will try to clarify my take on Rupa vs Arupas, and then you can tell me what you think. We shall also revisit MN 111 later. Thank you for being patient :candle:

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:15 pm

For everyone, to emphasize that jhana is very doable, for the interested buddhist,
the #1 appeal
the meditation helps to alleviate the angst of life more efficiently, than all other methods of meditation, hits the nail on the head, designed by Buddha himself. If you had faith in Buddha, would you not think that he would be the best designer for right concentration, as it applies to the 8-fold path.

Jhana is a way of stabilizing the consciousness, and remove distractedness. The Four meditations: These take the consciousness-complex outside of "normal" rational thinking process.
  • In the first meditation with mental application and discursive thought, with joy and pleasure one is not there yet
  • In the second, which is an inward tranquilization, mental application and discursive thought have ceased (mind is not inferencing, not rationalizing) joy and pleasure still exist
  • In the third meditation, the experience of joy fades out
  • In the 4th meditation the pleasure fades out, there is only that utterly pure lucidity and indifference of consciousness, wherein there is neither happiness, nor unhappiness
Again Pulsar emphasizes that there is nothing supernatural about it. Pl read Sallekah sutta. This is one instance of the canon, where it discusses Jhana differently as helping to remove minor defilements. Insight can be obtained as practice improves.

I found a worksheet on the web for Sallekha sutta MN 8. https://www.readingfaithfully.org/livin ... kha-sutta/ how to remove defilements in groups of 4 over time.

Effacement Ven. BB version https://suttacentral.net/mn8/en/bodhi

The goal eventually is to perfectly purify the mind, so that insight would be sharp enough to see the oyster shells, gravel banks shoals of fish on the move or stationary, on river bed or lake bottom...a metaphor from DN 2. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:heart:

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:24 pm

During the jhana meditation, one turns the mind away from
sensations, sanna, and volitional formations.
Mind becomes peaceful and sublime.
The world according to Buddha, is a creation of consciousness. Tathagata has called the consciousness a magic trick, a fabrication (SN 22.98) For the few moments one is settled on 4th jhana, world is utterly silent, abhisankarothi is suppressed that links one to DO. These are moments of release. When one has abolished contact, can volitional formations arise then? There is no nimittas that arise, 'animitta ceto vimuttti'
Diversity, papanca or papancasannasankhara (MN 18 Madhupindika sutta) has been abolished.The world of dependence is based on manifoldness, or multiple creations of the consciousness. When contact is abolished via 4th jhana meditation, fabricating consciousness has become non-functional,  briefly one glimpses the freedom of the Arahant.
Phena sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
is an ideal sutta for meditation, if you are averse to the word jhana, try meditating on this sutta.
At the end of Phena sutta the result is described with the identical words used to describe cessation in jhana meditations.
Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. Through dispassion, he's released. With release there's the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world

When we free ourselves of language, we find liberation unfolds magically. Now superimpose the above on the metaphor at end of DN 2 Samannaphala Sutta referring to the same experience of cessation...
Just as if sire, in the midst of mountains there were a pond, clear as a polished mirror, where a man with good eyesight standing on the bank would see oyster shells, gravel banks, and shoals of fish on the move or stationary ...just so with mind concentrated.... he knows 'birth is finished...there is nothing further here
There is this beautiful Dhamma taught by the Teacher endearing....
:heart:

auto
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by auto » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:41 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:24 pm
During the jhana meditation, one turns the mind away from
sensations, sanna, and volitional formations.
Mind becomes peaceful and sublime.
The world according to Buddha, is a creation of consciousness. Tathagata has called the consciousness a magic trick, a fabrication (SN 22.98) For the few moments one is settled on 4th jhana, world is utterly silent, abhisankarothi is suppressed that links one to DO. These are moments of release. When one has abolished contact, can volitional formations arise then? There is no nimittas that arise, 'animitta ceto vimuttti'
Diversity, papanca or papancasannasankhara (MN 18 Madhupindika sutta) has been abolished.The world of dependence is based on manifoldness, or multiple creations of the consciousness. When contact is abolished via 4th jhana meditation, fabricating consciousness has become non-functional,  briefly one glimpses the freedom of the Arahant.
Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon
In normal situations, the javana usually occurs for 7
conscious-moments and if there is no enough time, it does
not occur at all. In other words, as the object is not distinct
and not known precisely, no javana arises to enjoy the taste
of the object.
since you are in a hurry and no time, then impulsive consciousness doesn't even arise.
So two more voññhapana cittas arise in place of javana
to determine two more times whether the object is good
or bad. After that the conscious-stream sinks into lifecontinuum.
The sense-object and the eye-door dissolve at
the dissolving instant of the fourth bhavaïga, and lifecontinuum
flows on as usual after that.
In the next five successive vãthis, atità-bhavaïga (Ti) is
increased one by one as the object becomes weaker and
weaker, and accordingly the cittas in the rear have to be
cut off one by one as the total conscious-moments cannot
exceed the life-span (i.e., 17 conscious – moments) of the
sense-object. Thus at the sixth vãthi, the cognitive series
terminates after to voññhapana cittas.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness…….From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.
*
you should stay aware more longer time that there can javana, impulsive consciousness arise and you notice it.
Pãti develops joy or pleasurable interest in the object; it
temporarily inhibits illwill.Pãti is also a precursor of sukha
(pleasant feeling). Pãti creates an interest in the subject while
sukha enables one to enjoy the object. Sukha holds the mind to
stay longer on the object by its bliss; it temporarily drives away
restlessness and remorse.

Pulsar
Posts: 377
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:09 pm

Auto wrote "Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon"
thank you for your helpfulness and concern. But abhidhamma, while it is useful to read, and does suggest
helpful practices, I found it not so helpful, in advancing my practice.
Besides the most helpful abhidhamma is the one of antiquity, not the
later Theravada developments, so much, that is how I see it.
But you seem to stick to Upanishad yogic practices, which tend to contrast with the methods Buddha suggested.
For instance in Upanishads the yogis tend to block senses, no such thing in Buddha's world.
Also the yogi has to stick to strict dietary practices.
In Buddha's way of meditating or jhana, being established in the four satipathaanas is primary, plus the practice
of Iddhipadas and other awakening factors. Have you read those, and tried those?

You had asked earlier whether jhana helps in healing sickness.
It certainly helps heal suffering of the person, if that is what you meant, not neccearily
mental illness. To me it seems to begin the practice, one needs stability of mind.
Also you had asked about flight, and I joked of course, and that offended you, I suppose.
But seriously Arahants are described as birds in the sky in flight,
without leaving tracks. This is one simile that is a constant inspiration
to me. :heart:

auto
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by auto » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:54 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:09 pm
Auto wrote "Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon"
thank you for your helpfulness and concern. But abhidhamma, while it is useful to read, and does suggest
helpful practices, I found it not so helpful, in advancing my practice.
when you are meditating, do you notice the moment when you don't want to meditate anymore?
plainly do you notice urges?
auto wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:41 pm
you should stay aware more longer time that there can javana, impulsive consciousness arise and you notice it.
What you said in your previous post what inspired me to enquire.
You seem to take the momentous 'total' awareness as liberation of the mind, but actually the consciousness haven't even had the change to arose hence why the consciousness is like free which it actually isn't.

as a result whatever practice you do you may do lots and lots of progress but it doesn't go pass the hill of urge.

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