How does conceit arises ?

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seeker242
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:18 pm

sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:06 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:55 pm


Depends on what you mean by that. If you mean self identity view, AKA the 1st fetter, no. Although, it could easily be called "a view".
In the same way, although a noble disciple has given up the five lower fetters, they still have a lingering residue of the conceit ‘I am’, the desire ‘I am’, and the underlying tendency ‘I am’ which has not been eradicated. After some time they meditate observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates. ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form. Such is feeling … Such is perception … Such are choices … Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’ As they do so, that lingering residue is eradicated.” SN 22.89
It would be what is referred to above as "that lingering residue" AKA the 8th fetter, Māna.
I don't get it . So , does the residue "I am" can give rise to I am view ?
What is meant by "I am view"? Māna? Sakkāya-diṭṭhi?

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:30 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:18 pm


What is meant by "I am view"? Māna? Sakkāya-diṭṭhi?
Mana is the sense of I am , does the sense of I am can give rise to the view of I am ?
:buddha1:

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seeker242
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:57 pm

sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:30 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:18 pm


What is meant by "I am view"? Māna? Sakkāya-diṭṭhi?
Mana is the sense of I am , does the sense of I am can give rise to the view of I am ?
Mana could easily be called a view of I am. So sense of I am, view of i am, could mean the same thing.
"A noble disciple understands in this way the unskillful and its root, and the skillful and its root. They’ve completely given up the underlying tendency to greed, got rid of the underlying tendency to repulsion, and eradicated the underlying tendency to the view and conceit ‘I am’. They’ve given up ignorance and given rise to knowledge, and make an end of suffering in this very life." MN 9

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:27 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:57 pm
sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:30 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:18 pm


What is meant by "I am view"? Māna? Sakkāya-diṭṭhi?
Mana is the sense of I am , does the sense of I am can give rise to the view of I am ?
Mana could easily be called a view of I am. So sense of I am, view of i am, could mean the same thing.
"A noble disciple understands in this way the unskillful and its root, and the skillful and its root. They’ve completely given up the underlying tendency to greed, got rid of the underlying tendency to repulsion, and eradicated the underlying tendency to the view and conceit ‘I am’. They’ve given up ignorance and given rise to knowledge, and make an end of suffering in this very life." MN 9
That's baffle me , if the identity view eradicated , can the sense of I am still arise ?
:buddha1:

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cappuccino
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:35 pm

"Then how would he describe it correctly?"

"As the scent of the flower, would be the correct explanation."

"In the same way, friends, I do not say this 'I am' is the body,... consciousness, nor that it is other than the body,... consciousness. Yet with regard to the five groups of clinging, 'I am' comes to me, but I do not consider it as 'This I am.'
Khemo Sutta

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:39 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:35 pm
"Then how would he describe it correctly?"

"As the scent of the flower, would be the correct explanation."

"In the same way, friends, I do not say this 'I am' is the body,... consciousness, nor that it is other than the body,... consciousness. Yet with regard to the five groups of clinging, 'I am' comes to me, but I do not consider it as 'This I am.'
Khemo Sutta
Sorry , that is not making sense .
:buddha1:

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cappuccino
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:40 pm

I am
is a lingering smell
of identity

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:47 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:40 pm
I am
is a lingering smell
of identity
That's mean view of I am still arises ?
:buddha1:

santa100
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by santa100 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:56 pm

sentinel wrote:That's mean view of I am still arises ?
"Self-view" is the outer layer of the conceit "I am", which can be eliminated once one's attained Sotapanna. But the sense of/the conceit of "I", "mine", and "myself" is still there and can only be eradicated once one's attained Arahantship. See the chainsmoker analogy from a similar thread here. For more details on conceit, see MN 1. For conceit as a lingering scent of flower analogy, see SN 22.89

SarathW
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:38 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:55 pm
sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:05 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:14 pm


Conceit = I making. "I am better", "I am equal", "I am inferior", all = conceit
Are you saying the sense of I am = conceit , and is synonymous with the view of I am ?
Depends on what you mean by that. If you mean self identity view, AKA the 1st fetter, no. Although, it could easily be called "a view".
In the same way, although a noble disciple has given up the five lower fetters, they still have a lingering residue of the conceit ‘I am’, the desire ‘I am’, and the underlying tendency ‘I am’ which has not been eradicated. After some time they meditate observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates. ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form. Such is feeling … Such is perception … Such are choices … Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’ As they do so, that lingering residue is eradicated.” SN 22.89
:goodpost:

It would be what is referred to above as "that lingering residue" AKA the 8th fetter, Māna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:03 pm

It appears no one answer directly to the question , which is , is it sense of I am i.e. conceit , still give rise to the view of I am or not ?
Failing .
:buddha1:

SarathW
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:14 pm

sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:03 pm
It appears no one answer directly to the question , which is , is it sense of I am i.e. conceit , still give rise to the view of I am or not ?
Failing .
It depended on whether you are a lay person or an Arahant.
Arhants also think this as I am, me, myself etc without grasping.
Last edited by SarathW on Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:49 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:14 pm
sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:03 pm
It appears no one answer directly to the question , which is , is it sense of I am i.e. conceit , still give rise to the view of I am or not ?
Failing .
It depended on whether you are a lay person or an Arahant.
Arhants this as I am, me, myself etc without grasping.
What are you talking about ? Surely as indicated in text If you are sotapanna ,sakadagamin or anagamin still have conceit .
This is really not going anywhere .
:buddha1:

SarathW
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 am

Surely as indicated in text If you are sotapanna ,sakadagamin or anagamin still have conceit .
Agree.
It appears you are cofusing between self view and self identification.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:19 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 am
Surely as indicated in text If you are sotapanna ,sakadagamin or anagamin still have conceit .
Agree.
It appears you are cofusing between self view and self identification.
could you explain self identification and self view in plain English ?
:buddha1:

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