How does conceit arises ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
pegembara
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by pegembara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:27 am

Conceit(asmi-mana) is measuring or comparing oneself with others ie. equal, better or worse than.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Asmi-mana

It isn't necessarily "bad".
"'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
How is conceit abandoned?
The same way that identity view is abandoned in the first place. By the viewing things as anicca/dukkha and anatta, the centre also drops away.
Last edited by pegembara on Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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cappuccino
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:33 am

conceit is identity

the "I am" feeling

SarathW
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:27 am

sentinel wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:19 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 am
Surely as indicated in text If you are sotapanna ,sakadagamin or anagamin still have conceit .
Agree.
It appears you are cofusing between self view and self identification.
could you explain self identification and self view in plain English ?
1)People used to think that the world is flat. (this is a view)
2)Then people learned that the world is round.(this also a view)
3)Perhaps a person may go around the world in a rocket and truly realised that you can go around the world.

The second person is similar to a person with right view. (eradicated the self view)
The third person is like the Arahant who has eliminated self identification.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:51 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:27 am
Conceit(asmi-mana) is measuring or comparing oneself with others ie. equal, better or worse than.
So , comparing one self with other is a self view or not ?
:coffee:

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:52 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:33 am
conceit is identity

the "I am" feeling
Does feeling I am still give rise to identity view ?
:coffee:

pegembara
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by pegembara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:33 am

sentinel wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:51 am
pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:27 am
Conceit(asmi-mana) is measuring or comparing oneself with others ie. equal, better or worse than.
So , comparing one self with other is a self view or not ?
Self-view means identifying with the 5 aggregates which is more than simply comparing with other "selves". When you identify the body, thoughts and emotions as belonging to a self there isn't necessarily a comparison. is there?

However, your very question itself reeks of self-view.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:35 am

sentinel wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:52 am
cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:33 am
conceit is identity

the "I am" feeling
Does feeling I am still give rise to identity view ?
Not for Sotapanna and Arahants etc.
Sotapanna has eradicated the personality view (Sakkaya Dithi)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:02 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:33 am
sentinel wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:51 am
pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:27 am
Conceit(asmi-mana) is measuring or comparing oneself with others ie. equal, better or worse than.
So , comparing one self with other is a self view or not ?
Self-view means identifying with the 5 aggregates which is more than simply comparing with other "selves". When you identify the body, thoughts and emotions as belonging to a self there isn't necessarily a comparison. is there?

However, your very question itself reeks of self-view.
Identifying 5 aggregates as self is self view or identity view ?
Comparing 5 aggregates with other aggregates is conceit ?
:coffee:

pegembara
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by pegembara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:07 am

sentinel wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:02 am
pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:33 am
sentinel wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:51 am


So , comparing one self with other is a self view or not ?
Self-view means identifying with the 5 aggregates which is more than simply comparing with other "selves". When you identify the body, thoughts and emotions as belonging to a self there isn't necessarily a comparison. is there?

However, your very question itself reeks of self-view.
Identifying 5 aggregates as self is self view or identity view ?
Comparing 5 aggregates with other aggregates is conceit ?
Identifying 5 aggregates as self is self view or identity view ?
Whenever you take anything to be yours or belonging to you, there is the assumption that a 'self' exists.
That is the default view of 'worldling' or puthujana. That assumption is never questioned until the Buddha came along.

"Individuals" tend to assume the above. So comparing 'my' body with 'yours' is conceit derived from sakkayadithi/identity view.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

sentinel
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:23 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:07 am

Whenever you take anything to be yours or belonging to you, there is the assumption that a 'self' exists.
That is the default view of 'worldling' or puthujana. That assumption is never questioned until the Buddha came along.

"Individuals" tend to assume the above. So comparing 'my' body with 'yours' is conceit derived from sakkayadithi/identity view.
Ok , since sotapanna eradicated assumption aggregates as self , no more self view , done .
I understand what is self view or identity view .

Conceit ie comparing as you said , is Not integrate of self view ?
:coffee:

pegembara
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by pegembara » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:40 am

sentinel wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:23 am
pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:07 am

Whenever you take anything to be yours or belonging to you, there is the assumption that a 'self' exists.
That is the default view of 'worldling' or puthujana. That assumption is never questioned until the Buddha came along.

"Individuals" tend to assume the above. So comparing 'my' body with 'yours' is conceit derived from sakkayadithi/identity view.
Ok , since sotapanna eradicated assumption aggregates as self , no more self view , done .
I understand what is self view or identity view .

Conceit ie comparing as you said , is Not self view ?
Understanding is just the first step. Like accepting that smoking is bad. Quitting is another matter!
Conceit derives from self view. Or rather from the perception that there is a self(that lingering 'scent' of I am). When that perception is fully eradicated, conceit drops away. We are talking about the arahant here.
"'The perception of not-self in what is stressful, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end': Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

"When a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of not-self in what is stressful, his heart is devoid of I-making & my-making with regard to this conscious body and externally with regard to all themes, has transcended pride, is at peace, and is well-released. If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of not-self in what is stressful, his heart is not devoid of I-making & my-making with regard to this conscious body and externally with regard to all themes, has not transcended pride, is not at peace, and is not well-released, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of not-self in what is stressful; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.' In that way he is alert there. But if, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of not-self in what is stressful, his heart is devoid of I-making & my-making with regard to this conscious body and externally with regard to all themes, has transcended pride, is at peace, and is well-released, then he should realize, 'I have developed the perception of not-self in what is stressful; there is a step-by-step distinction in me; I have arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

sentinel
Posts: 2426
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:25 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:40 am
If, when a monk's awareness often remains steeped in the perception of not-self in what is stressful, his heart is not devoid of I-making & my-making with regard to this conscious body and externally with regard to all themes, has not transcended pride, is not at peace, and is not well-released, then he should realize, 'I have not developed the perception of not-self in what is stressful; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
So , the first three fruits still have conceit ? Therefore would give rise to sense of I am but without identity view?
:coffee:

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cappuccino
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:31 pm

sentinel wrote: So, the first three fruits still have conceit? Therefore would give rise to sense of I am but without identity view?
right

a lingering smell
of identity

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