How does conceit arises ?

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sentinel
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How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:34 am

Dear forums ,

Can someone provide text that describe the arising process of conceit ?

Thanks
:coffee:

SarathW
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:43 am

Due to inappropriate attention or tanking five aggregate or six sense bases as I, me and myself.
By the way, what do you understand when you say "conceit"?
Could you explain your understanding?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:08 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:43 am
Due to inappropriate attention or tanking five aggregate or six sense bases as I, me and myself.
By the way, what do you understand when you say "conceit"?
Could you explain your understanding?
I was thinking if you could provide reference text .
:coffee:

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:49 am

“Mendicants, when what exists, because of grasping what and insisting on what, do people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’?”

“Our teachings are rooted in the Buddha. …”

“When there’s an eye, because of grasping the eye and insisting on the eye, people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’. …

When there’s a mind, because of grasping the mind and insisting on the mind, people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’.

What do you think, mendicants? Is the eye permanent or impermanent?”

“Impermanent, sir.”

“But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Suffering, sir.”

“But by not grasping what’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, would people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’?”

“No, sir.” …


“Is the mind permanent or impermanent?”

“Impermanent, sir.”

“But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Suffering, sir.”

“But by not grasping what’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, would people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’?”

“No, sir.”

“Seeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. Being disillusioned, desire fades away. When desire fades away they’re freed. When they’re freed, they know they’re freed.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’”
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.108/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:11 am

Sorry , did not see the Pali stating conceit(mana) anywhere ?




Mendicants, when what exists, because of grasping what and insisting on what, do people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’?”
“Kismiṃ nu kho, bhikkhave, sati kiṃ upādāya kiṃ abhinivissa seyyohamasmīti vā hoti, sadisohamasmīti vā hoti, hīnohamasmīti vā hotī”ti?

“Our teachings are rooted in the Buddha. …”
“Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā … pe ….

“When there’s an eye, because of grasping the eye and insisting on the eye, people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’. …
“Cakkhusmiṃ kho, bhikkhave, sati cakkhuṃ upādāya cakkhuṃ abhinivissa seyyohamasmīti vā hoti, sadisohamasmīti vā hoti, hīnohamasmīti vā hoti … pe …
jivhāya sati … pe …
:coffee:

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seeker242
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:26 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:11 am
Sorry , did not see the Pali stating conceit(mana) anywhere ?

Mendicants, when what exists, because of grasping what and insisting on what, do people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’?”
Why do you think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’ isn't itself conceit?

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:27 am

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:26 am
sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:11 am
Sorry , did not see the Pali stating conceit(mana) anywhere ?

Mendicants, when what exists, because of grasping what and insisting on what, do people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’?”
Why do you think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’ isn't itself conceit?
I was hoping someone can tell me ?
:coffee:

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seeker242
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:30 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:27 am
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:26 am
sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:11 am


Sorry , did not see the Pali stating conceit(mana) anywhere ?

Mendicants, when what exists, because of grasping what and insisting on what, do people think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’?”
Why do you think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’ isn't itself conceit?
I was hoping someone can tell me ?
I would say it is conceit and the reason it arises is stated above. :meditate:

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:32 am

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:30 am


I would say it is conceit and the reason it arises is stated above. :meditate:
Well good for you , but others might want some text to substantiate it in the Pali so to make it clear .
:coffee:

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seeker242
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:38 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:32 am
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:30 am


I would say it is conceit and the reason it arises is stated above. :meditate:
Well good for you , but others might want some text to substantiate it in the Pali so to make it clear .
I don't think the word mana needs to be explicitly said in order to describe conceit. "I am" = conceit and "i am" is clearly stated above.

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:55 am

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:38 am


I don't think the word mana needs to be explicitly said in order to describe conceit. "I am" = conceit and "i am" is clearly stated above.
Opinion is one thing , evidence is one thing .
:coffee:

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seeker242
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:14 pm

sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:55 am
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:38 am


I don't think the word mana needs to be explicitly said in order to describe conceit. "I am" = conceit and "i am" is clearly stated above.
Opinion is one thing , evidence is one thing .
“Just as, bhikkhus, all petty princes are the vassals of a wheel-turning monarch, and the wheel-turning monarch is declared to be their chief, so too, when the perception of impermanence is developed … it uproots all conceit ‘I am.’SN 22.102
“Rāhula, engaging in knowing like this and seeing like this, in this body of mine with consciousness within and all external signs [the sense of] ‘I’, ‘mine’, and the underlying tendency, fetter, and attachment to the I-conceit are not caused to arise. Rāhula, in this way one does not give rise to [the sense of] ‘I’, ‘mine’, and the underlying tendency, fetter, and attachment to the I-conceit. Rāhula this is called abandoning craving and murky views by rightly comprehending the unsurpassed transcendence of dukkha.” SA 198
There the World-honored One spoke a verse:

“Whoever says that the signs /
arising from name-and-form do truly exist,
know that this person /
is on the road of death.

Perceiving in name-and-form /
emptiness and absence of self-nature
this is called to respect the Buddhas /
for ever free from the realms of existence.”

The Buddha asked the deva: “Did you understand that?” The deva replied: “Not yet, World-honored One.” Then the Buddha spoke another verse:

“The conceit of being better than others, the conceit of being equal /
and the conceit of being inferior to others;
those with these three conceits /
are apt to have arguments;
those who have done away with them /
are called of unmovable mind.”
SA2 17
Conceit = I making. "I am better", "I am equal", "I am inferior", all = conceit

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:05 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:14 pm


Conceit = I making. "I am better", "I am equal", "I am inferior", all = conceit
Are you saying the sense of I am = conceit , and is synonymous with the view of I am ?
:coffee:

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seeker242
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:55 pm

sentinel wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:05 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:14 pm


Conceit = I making. "I am better", "I am equal", "I am inferior", all = conceit
Are you saying the sense of I am = conceit , and is synonymous with the view of I am ?
Depends on what you mean by that. If you mean self identity view, AKA the 1st fetter, no. Although, it could easily be called "a view".
In the same way, although a noble disciple has given up the five lower fetters, they still have a lingering residue of the conceit ‘I am’, the desire ‘I am’, and the underlying tendency ‘I am’ which has not been eradicated. After some time they meditate observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates. ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form. Such is feeling … Such is perception … Such are choices … Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’ As they do so, that lingering residue is eradicated.” SN 22.89
It would be what is referred to above as "that lingering residue" AKA the 8th fetter, Māna.

sentinel
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Re: How does conceit arises ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:06 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:55 pm


Depends on what you mean by that. If you mean self identity view, AKA the 1st fetter, no. Although, it could easily be called "a view".
In the same way, although a noble disciple has given up the five lower fetters, they still have a lingering residue of the conceit ‘I am’, the desire ‘I am’, and the underlying tendency ‘I am’ which has not been eradicated. After some time they meditate observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates. ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form. Such is feeling … Such is perception … Such are choices … Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’ As they do so, that lingering residue is eradicated.” SN 22.89
It would be what is referred to above as "that lingering residue" AKA the 8th fetter, Māna.
I don't get it . So , does the residue "I am" can give rise to I am view ?
:coffee:

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