SN35.07 Origin of the world - another way to explain Depndent Origination

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SarathW
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SN35.07 Origin of the world - another way to explain Depndent Origination

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:15 pm

Perhaps many of us do not know that there are various versions of Dependent Origination.
Please discuss various DO in this thread.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.107/en/sujato
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mikenz66
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Re: SN35.07 Origin of the world - another way to explain Depndent Origination

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:18 pm

Yes, there are a lot of suttas that I'd consider Dependent Origination.

In addition to the obvious: https://suttacentral.net/sn12, https://suttacentral.net/dn14, you have the one you mention. And many more, including:

https://suttacentral.net/mn18/
https://suttacentral.net/an10.92/en/sujato#6.3

And of course there are many references to these, and other suttas, in Bhikkhu Nananada's sermons: https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
Nibbana - The Mind Stilled.
The Law of Dependent Arising.

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SarathW
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Re: SN35.07 Origin of the world - another way to explain Depndent Origination

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:00 pm

Thanks Mike.
In the Origin of the World sutta Buddha stated DO from Salayatana omitting the previous links.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: SN35.07 Origin of the world - another way to explain Depndent Origination

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:10 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:00 pm
Thanks Mike.
In the Origin of the World sutta Buddha stated DO from Salayatana omitting the previous links.
Yes, like in MN18 that I linked above...
https://suttacentral.net/mn18/en/sujato#16.1

And in DN14 and SN12.65 there is the name-and-form/consciousness vortex:
https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato#2.19.2
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/sujato#2.10

Also, look at the last chapter of the Sutta Nipata: https://suttacentral.net/snp-parayanavagga
Noble Truths and DO are not mentioned specifically there, but there are hints.
See: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=12663#p191467


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DooDoot
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Re: SN35.07 Origin of the world - another way to explain Depndent Origination

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:51 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:00 pm
In the Origin of the World sutta Buddha stated DO from Salayatana omitting the previous links.
Not in SN 12.15, for example. SN 12.15 refers to the origin of the world and has all 12 links.

Also, D.O. often starts from Salayatana omitting the previous links, such as in MN 38. This obviously makes the teaching clear.

Also, 4NTs is taught with the word "world". Refer to SN 2.26 & AN 4.45.
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Re: SN35.07 Origin of the world - another way to explain Depndent Origination

Post by ToVincent » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:54 pm

As usual, one has a tendency to counfound the "world" with the "dhamma" (धर्मन् dharmán).
This is an unwitting and unknowledgeable tendency, or maybe just another purposeful one.

ध dha (or √ dhā) - √ मन् man - somewhat meaning a "performed & established/objectified "thinking"" (dharma) [धर्मन् dharmán].
Paṭiccasamuppāda being one of these dharmán - viz. the actualisation (objectification) of ignorance (looking for the truth).

---------

As per SN 35.82 (// SA 231), the Buddhist "world" is:
- form, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition.
- ear, ear-consciousness…
...
- mano, mano-consciousness...
All disintegrating, ([危脆 (breakable) 敗壞 (decaying)]) .

In other words, the world is defined as the ajjhatika āyatana (internal field of sensory experience,) encountering the bāhira āyatana (external field of sensory experience,) the ensuing consciousness of that internal field, and the contact (transferred property from the external āyatana to the internal one) - that leads to one of the three feelings.
An experience that is intrinsically liable to decay.
(https://justpaste.it/1695d - visual aid)

----------

As such, there is an abridged definition of Paṭiccasamuppāda, when it comes to explain the "origin" of the "world" alone.

It is becoming quite painful to see the same people trying to hale a vision of Buddhism limited to the "world", by asking the same question again and again; when it is obvious that the "world" is just a part of paṭiccasamuppāda.
The whole SN 12 is full of suttas with parallels, that adresses paṭiccasamuppāda with the 12 links.

SN 35.107 (a saḷāyatana vaggasaṃyutta's sutta,) is just about explaining the origination?/lit. coming forward together (sam+ud+ā+√ इ i) of the fifth to eight links of paṭiccasamuppāda (viz. the "world" per se); and what that "world" does activate further (the four last links (nidānā)) of paṭiccasamuppāda.
It explains how the "world" comes forward, and what it actuates (and how it comes out of existence). And that is circumscribed to the last eight links.

As shown on https://justpaste.it/1695d , it is the maintenance of conciousness that will set back off the third and the fourth links of paṭiccasamuppāda. You cannot just ignore that; even if it is not relevant to explain the coming forward by itself.

Note that SA 233, (SN 35. 107's parallel,) has a shorter definition of the coming forward of the world; that is to say: attachment to existence, delight and craving.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: SN35.07 Origin of the world - another way to explain Depndent Origination

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:52 am

Image




Phassa-paccaya Avijja



... through contact with the world, ignorance develops ...
https://religiondocbox.com/Buddhism/906 ... ikkhu.html
:candle: Not an endorsement nor a quibble: just posting "another way". :twothumbsup:
.


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  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

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Re: SN35.07 Origin of the world - another way to explain Depndent Origination

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:45 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:52 am
Image

Phassa-paccaya Avijja
... through contact with the world, ignorance develops ...
https://religiondocbox.com/Buddhism/906 ... ikkhu.html
:candle: Not an endorsement nor a quibble: just posting "another way". :twothumbsup:
It appears unlikely Ajahn Buddhadasa used the word "world" above, the same as is found in SN 35.107, SN 12.44, AN 4.45, etc. This said, the suttas do say ignorance "develops" or "grows" (rather than is "created") after sense contact, for example, as follows:
MN 148 wrote:Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering without abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, without abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is impossible.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi
About the word "world" or "loka", as found in SN 35.107, SN 12.44, AN 4.45, etc, Ajahn Buddhadasa said:
Bhikkhu Buddhadasa wrote:Now we shall say something about the word "world" (loka). In everyday language, the word "world" refers to the Earth, this physical world, flat or round or however you conceive it. The "world" as the physical Earth is everyday language. In Dhamma language, however, the word "world" refers to worldly (lokiya) mental states, the worldly stages in the scale of mental development-that is to say, dukkha. The condition that is impermanent, changing, unsatisfactory-this is the worldly condition of the mind. And this is what is meant by the "world" in Dhamma language. Hence it is said that the world is dukkha, dukkha is the world. When the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths (ariya-sacca), he sometimes used the term "world" and sometimes the term "dukkha" They are one and the same. For instance, he spoke of:

- the world;

- the cause of the arising of the world;

- the extinction of the world;

- the path that brings about the extinction of the world.

What he meant was:

- dukkha;

- the cause of dukkha;

- the extinction of dukkha;

- the path that brings about the extinction of dukkha.

So in the language of the Buddha, the language of Dhamma, the word "world" refers to dukkha; suffering and the world are one and the same.

Taken another way, the word "world" refers to things that are low, shallow, not profound, and fall short of their highest potential. For instance, we speak of such and such a thing as "worldly", meaning that it is not Dhamma. This is another meaning of the word "world" in Dhamma language. "World" does not always refer simply to this Earth, as in everyday language.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books5/Bhik ... nguage.htm
:candle:
SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:15 pm
Perhaps many of us do not know that there are various versions of Dependent Origination.
I learned this from Ajahn Buddhadasa years ago. Sounds like you have been a 'Buddhist' all your life but never knew this until recently.
Bhikkhu Buddhadasa wrote:We would like to discuss the Pali word lokutara. Lok or loke means ‘the world’. Utara means ‘to be above’ or ‘beyond’. So lokutara means above or beyond the world.

This doesn’t mean getting into a spaceship :alien: and flying off into space because it doesn’t matter where we went, that would still be the world. Any place, no matter how far away it is, is still the world.

Lokutara, ‘above the world’, doesn’t have anything to do with our body. This means for the mind to be above worldly conditions.

We cannot escape the world, we must live in it. But the mind needn’t be trapped under the influence of ‘good and bad’, ‘winning and losing’, ‘getting and missing’, ‘positivism and negativism’ and all those worldly qualities and values.

While living in the world, even if we are under the ground, the mind can still be ‘above the world’ , can still exist ‘beyond the world’.

This is something mental or spiritual, it is not a physical ‘being above’, floating around in some spaceship.

To make it more simple or short, we can just say that ‘I’ or the ego is the world. This concept of ‘I’ or the ego, this is the meaning of the world. To be above that egoistic idea or concept is to be above the world.

Ajahn Buddhadasa @ 35.55
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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