Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Pulsar
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:54 pm

In case OP did not communicate well enough, here is an important way, in which 4 rupa jhanas and 4 frames of mindfulness resemble each other. Satipatthana samyutta ends with SN 47.104.
The sutta states
the 4 establishments of mindfulness are to be developed for Direct Knowledge
of the higher fetters
, for their utter destruction,
which brings one to the last step of the Ten-fold path,
right deliverance
Likewise, the
development of 4th jhana,
leads to Right knowledge (9th factor of 10-fold path) ending in the utter
destruction of all fetters, and to Right Deliverance of 10-fold path
:candle:

PS DooDoot I have not read your comments carefully, will
do so later, when I find the time, your comments challenge me, and I hate to misinterpret
them.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5603
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:24 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:54 pm
PS DooDoot I have not read your comments carefully
I do not recall you have ever read my comments carefully.
Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:54 pm
will do so later, when I find the time, your comments challenge me, and I hate to misinterpret them.
Thank you but there is no need to reply to any comments. A teacher does not teach in order to be replied to. Its seems obvious it is not understood that Satipatthana is the practise of non-clinging towards body, feelings, mind & Dhammas. Mere "awareness" of body, feelings, mind & Dhammas is not Satipatthana.
Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:54 pm
The sutta states
the 4 establishments of mindfulness are to be developed for Direct Knowledge
of the higher fetters
, for their utter destruction,
which brings one to the last step of the Ten-fold path,
right deliverance
It does not matter what the sutta states if the sutta is not understood. The 4 establishments of mindfulness means being mindful (remembering) to not cling to body, feelings, mind & Dhamma. "Jhana" is a feeling, mind & dhamma not be be clung to; i.e., to not identify with. The suttas say when the mind of Sariputta entered jhana, the thought never arose in his mind: "I am entering jhana". This is because Sariputta was practising Satipatthana rather than merely copying & pasting Satipatthana.

Regards. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 972
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pondera » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:31 am

Dear DooDoot:

Can I ask you again? You did not address my earlier concern.

If you feed on pork fried rice early in the day, then do you “radiate” it later in the day?

What are you a teacher of, my friend? You contradict the suttas; whenever you read something which contradicts your worldview you classify it as “fake dhamma”; and you spread misinformation.

You are not experienced in joy, rapture, serenity or pleasure - and the only thing you have to your credit is that you’ve read the nikayas and you have a rudimentary understanding of the Pāli language.

So what is it you teach, oh great teacher :bow: ? I think you should listen closer to your pupils. You might learn something.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5603
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:04 am

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:31 am
I you You my you you you my You you your you you You you your you’ve you

So what is it you teach, oh great teacher

I you your You
What is taught is as posted on this topic:
Doot wrote:Satipatthana is the practise of non-clinging.

'Being mindful' (sati) is remembering to not cling to body, feelings, citta & Truth as 'self' & 'pertaining to self'.

it seems the clinging mind cannot attain Buddhist jhana.

Its seems obvious it is not understood that Satipatthana is the practise of non-clinging towards body, feelings, mind & Dhammas. Mere "awareness" of body, feelings, mind & Dhammas is not Satipatthana.
:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 972
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pondera » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:25 am

Correction to your qualifications as a teacher:

You haven’t read the Digha Nikaya because, according to you, “it was primarily composed to convert Brahmins”.

Right. And therefore it’s of no use to us “peasants”.

Consider the following oh your Radiance of Pork Fried Rice :bow:
There is no concentration for him who lacks wisdom,

Nor is there wisdom for him who lacks concentration.

In whom are found both concentration and wisdom--

He, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbana."
Mindfulness or “remembering” is for the purpose of discernment. Discernment of what? Discernment of your theme. Discernment of your theme is for the purpose of concentration. Concentration is for the purpose of knowledge and vision of things as they really are ... etc ... final release.

I believe you utterly lack discernment, Guru DooDoot. Which is sad, because a lot of impressionable people come to this site looking for examples of Buddhist wisdom.

:bow:
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5603
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:43 am

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:25 am
You haven’t read the Digha Nikaya because, according to you, “it was primarily composed to convert Brahmins”.
Yes. Good to read what was taught was remembered.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:25 am
Right. And therefore it’s of no use to us “peasants”.
Actually, DN is often clung to by "peasants".
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:25 am
Mindfulness or “remembering” is for the purpose of discernment. Discernment of what? Discernment of your theme. Discernment of your theme is for the purpose of concentration. Concentration is for the purpose of knowledge and vision of things as they really are ... etc ... final release.
Empty words.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:25 am
I believe you utterly lack discernment, Guru DooDoot. Which is sad, because a lot of impressionable people come to this site looking for examples of Buddhist wisdom.
Sure, since there are different beliefs, it is natural to not share beliefs.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 972
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pondera » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:04 am

:bow: what was taught by the radiant pork fried rice guru was recounted by the heretic, clinging peasant Pondera :bow:

All hail the Pork Fried Rice Radiant Guru DooDoot :bow:

Jhana is too hard for anyone but a Bhikkhu to attain, so don’t try!!! Just talk about it like you know what you’re talking about. All hail :bow:
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5603
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:44 am

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:04 am
Jhana is too hard for anyone but a Bhikkhu to attain, so don’t try!!!
The suttas and Vinaya clearly say jhana is a superhuman state. Claiming jhana is not superhuman and also claiming to practise jhana appears to be a contradiction indicating overestimation or mis-perception.

I think the fact that the Jhana-Clingers get so emotional :tantrum: , aggressive & 'personal' when their claims of jhana are ridiculed shows real jhana has not been reached. I imagine if "I" attained jhana, it would be like a "secret" to me; given I would know reaching a superhuman jhana was/is something "superhuman" born of a very special effort & dedication.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Pulsar
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pulsar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:56 am

DooDoot wrote
It does not matter what the sutta states if the sutta is not understood.
What you say is very true. Most people including DooDoot misinterpret the sutta. Does not use Dhamma Vicaya, 2nd factor of 7 factors of awakening, to investigate the 4 Frames of Reference.
The body meditation, It is not about meditating on corpses as some commentaries imply either. On Buddha's day a group of monks that meditated on similar stuff, became depressed and committed suicide.
If with wisdom you read the sutta DooDoot, it is not
about (being mindful (remembering) to not cling to body, feelings, mind & Dhamma)
either as you understood it, It is about using the
body, feelings, mind, and mind objects to bring suffering to an end
Satipatthana is called the ekayana, way to Nibbana. So it is logical to use 4NT and DO to assist the process. Now let us see, how do you meditate on the body wisely, if the end purpose is cessation of suffering, bring you to the third truth of
nibbanic bliss
What does the body have that can teach us something dynamically?
It has sense bases. what is the issue with sense bases? when
objects impact those sense bases (Phassa) it creates feelings
of like dislike and neutral. This brings us to
feelings
second establishment. Meditating on feelings mean observing how feelings arise, prevail and fade away.
What is the problem with feelings?
it causes clinging
like dislike etc? what is the problem with clinging, we cling and react. This reaction creates kamma, lengthens samsara
a whole jam of sankharas arise, a big problem. Origination of volitional formations lead to more entanglement within paticca samuppada, one place where we can stop DO, by interfering with these mental profusions
How to stop?
minimize the volitional formations. How do you minimize volitional formations? minimize feelings.
How do you minimize feelings? by minimizing contact or phassa
This is where sense restraint comes in, as taught in son's flesh. SN 12.63
Minimize contact with sensory world
keep it to the bare essential
See how the teaching is never one thing, meditator is using the entire teaching to enhance satipatthana, and bring an end to suffering, third noble truth.
Knowledge of DO and purpose of satipatthana is not to arouse mental proliferation, and cause endless arguments, but to use these to end the mental proliferation.
I will continue with this later, for now think about it, meditate on it, without immediately reacting.
Imagine how magnificent this teaching is
Somewhere in the canon it says if you faithfully follow the sutta, you can achieve Nibbana in a very short time.
But then before we follow the system of the sutta and the Dhamma, we must really understand it, and be disciplined in body, mind and action.
PS How is discipline sharpened? via all factors of the eight, including Jhana.
With love :candle:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5603
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:13 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:56 am
What you say is very true.
Truthful speech is not difficult for me. That is why I am an expert on Law. Law is Dhamma. Dhamma Niyama is Dhamma Law (AN 3.136)
Most people including DooDoot misinterpret the sutta.
No. Since you came to this forum it is you that is repeatedly shown to misrepresent sutta. For example, you posted jhana is not a superhuman state. However, the suttas say jhana is a superhuman state.
On Buddha's day a group of monks that meditated on similar stuff, became depressed and committed suicide.
The monks were not "depressed". The monks saw the meaningless of life. The monks were disenchanted rather than depressed.
it is not about (being mindful (remembering) to not cling to body, feelings, mind & Dhamma)
Satipatthana is about not cling to body, feelings, mind & Dhamma. This is what is written in the sutta.
It is about using the body, feelings, mind, and mind objects to bring suffering to an end
Suffering only ends with non-clinging.
Now let us see, how do you meditate on the body wisely, if the end purpose is cessation of suffering, bring you to the third truth of
nibbanic bliss
Nibbana is from non-clinging. It seems nearly everything you post is contrary to the suttas. :smile:
And he remains independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

Satipatthana Sutta
When he does not cling, he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.

MN 37
“Good, good, Anuruddha. But while you abide thus diligent, ardent, and resolute, have you attained any superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding?”

“Why not, venerable sir? Here, venerable sir, whenever we want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, we enter upon and abide in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. Venerable sir, this is a superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding, which we have attained while abiding diligent, ardent, and resolute.”

“Good, good, Anuruddha"

MN 31
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
Posts: 11935
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:19 pm

[My understanding is that both Jhanas and Staipatthana
are practiced in order to remove clinging, so if one clings to any of these practices their purpose is lost./quote]
I agree with reservation.
-Jhana remove clinging so as only to attain Arupavacara Jhana
- Satipathana is practiced to eliminate all clinging and attain Nibbana
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sunnat
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by sunnat » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:25 pm

Yes and no

Sure, you get established in virtue and seek solitude and quiet. That minimises the creation of new kamma seed. Wherever there is contact there is craving. Reduce contact. Very important.

Then. The practice of insight meditation. Vipassana. This proper continuous equanimous observation of feelings starts the purification or eradication of old kamma seeds that results in jhanas, Nibbana etc.

Having reduced feeling input then feelings that arise are not something to reduce.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5603
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:26 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:19 pm
- Satipathana is practiced to eliminate all clinging and attain Nibbana
-Jhana remove clinging so as only to attain Arupavacara Jhana
The suttas appear to say the opposite. The suttas appear to say remove clinging to attain jhana.
There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go (vossagga), attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana

SN 48.10

The suttas also appear to say the Factors of Awakening in Satipathana depend on letting go.
And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, maturing as relinquishment (vossagga).

MN 118
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Antaradhana
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:56 pm
Location: Saratov, Russia

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Antaradhana » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:31 pm

In buddhism, jhana is a tool for practicing satipatthana (like a microscope or a telescope in science). Satipatthana is practiced directly in jhanas. Without satipatthana, jhana is just a pleasant stay.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5603
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:47 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:31 pm
In buddhism, jhana is a tool for practicing satipatthana (like a microscope or a telescope in science). Satipatthana is practiced directly in jhanas. Without satipatthana, jhana is just a pleasant stay.
Very true. Its all about Satipatthana. However, jhana is also a sign of (gradual) mental purification. Jhana is a sign the abandoning of unwholesomeness is progressing properly. Ajahn Brahm beautifully says: "Simply put, Jhana states are stages of letting go".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], kroyakor and 120 guests