Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

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Pulsar
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Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:51 am

OP is referring to the four buddhist jhanas, ignoring the four that have been inserted between these and cessation. I feel this is adequate to reach the end of suffering.
OP is also referring to Satipatthana as the practice that is expounded by Satipatthana Samyutta, not one single sutta selected by the compilers of the canon.
To properly expound the rupa jhanas canon resorts to many suttas, we will use the canon likewise for Satipatthana, to understand what the teaching originally meant. Pl be gentle in your statements, with sati in mind. :candle:

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DooDoot
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:20 pm

Satipatthana is being mindful (sati) when experiencing/observing (anupassi) body, feelings, citta & Truth. 'Being mindful' (sati) is remembering to not cling to body, feelings, citta & Truth as 'self' & 'pertaining to self'.

Jhana is the highest level of concentration; where the mind has ekaggata. There are lower levels of concentration, which may be mistaken to be 'jhana'. Both jhana & lower neighbour concentration have pleasant feelings associated with them.

Regardless, the feelings of 'jhana' are merely mere 'feelings''. The bright citta of jhana is merely mere 'citta'. In other words, every feature of jhana is an object of Satipatthana, i.e., an object of non-clinging.

If something imagined to be 'jhana' is clung to, then Satipatthana is not being practised because the practise of Satipatthana is the practise of non-clinging.

MN 117 says in one of right mindfulness, right concentration comes into being. Therefore, since right mindfulness is a prerequisite for right concentration (right jhana), it seems the clinging mind cannot attain Buddhist jhana.

:smile:
And he/she remains independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

Satipatthana Sutta
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Antaradhana
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Antaradhana » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:19 pm

:goodpost:
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

2600htz
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by 2600htz » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:06 pm

Hello:

Satipatthana Sutta starts with the mindfulness of breathing instructions, and the mindfulness of breathing instructions are instructions on how to develop jhana :jumping: .

Regards.

Pulsar
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:22 pm

DooDoot wrote
Jhana is the highest level of concentration; where the mind has ekaggata. There are lower levels of concentration, which may be mistaken to be 'jhana'. Both jhana & lower neighbour concentration have pleasant feelings associated with them.
Jhana is merely pleasant abiding? explains why you think jhana is something to be dispensed with?
I read your comment this morning before
you deleted it. Why do you think ordinary people should not hear of jhana?
Your thinking baffles me.
You wrote
If something imagined to be 'jhana' is clung to, then Satipatthana is not being practised because the practise of Satipatthana is the practise of non-clinging
My understanding is that both Jhanas and Staipatthana
are practiced in order to remove clinging, so if one clings to any of these practices their purpose is lost.
You wrote
MN 117 says in one of right mindfulness, right concentration comes into being. Therefore, since right mindfulness is a prerequisite for right concentration (right jhana), it seems the clinging mind cannot attain Buddhist jhana.
I agree, these practices are not meant for clinging minds :)
PS I am happy that you have accepted MN 117 as an authentic
teaching, one you rejected a while ago. Take care :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pulsar
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pulsar » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:26 pm

Hello 2600htz
thank you for one common denominator.
regards :candle:

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DooDoot
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:38 pm

2600htz wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:06 pm
mindfulness of breathing
I say there is no such thing as "mindfulness of breathing". 99.9% of Buddhists are wrong when using the term "of".
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:26 pm
thank you for one common denominator.
Thank you for showing one common error in 99.9% of Buddhists.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:26 pm
I read your comment this morning before you deleted it.
I do not recall deleting any comment.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:26 pm
Why do you think ordinary people should not hear of jhana? Your thinking baffles me.
I do not recall ever saying this. But I do recall saying "jhana" should be be argued about with ordinary people. Regardless, ordinary people with sensual desires cannot attain jhana because jhana is a state without sensual desire.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:26 pm
My understanding is that both Jhanas and Staipatthana are practiced in order to remove clinging, so if one clings to any of these practices their purpose is lost.
Your so-called "understanding" appears contrary to the Buddha, who said non-clinging is practised to attain jhana. Refer to SN 48.10.

You say jhana is practised to end clinging. The Buddha said non-clinging is practised to attain jhana. Regardless, your posts on the forum have provided little evidence of freedom from clinging therefore they show your claims to jhana is not ending clinging.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pulsar
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:11 am

DooDoot, perhaps I misremember, so you said
But I do recall saying "jhana" should be be argued about with ordinary people
What does that mean?
What point is engaging in a dispute that does not benefit anyone? I must not waste the
time of others, including yours. We must return to our own resort, and maintain
mindfulness, or the quiet mood. Buddha said in SN 47.6 "Do not stray outside your own resort into the domain of others, Mara will gain access to those who stray outside their own resort into the domain of others... Move in your own ancestral domain" Let us withdraw into our ancestral domains. :candle:

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DooDoot
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:16 am

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:11 am
I must not waste...
If I trained for 10 years, many hours each day, and won a gold medal in the Olympic Games, I would understand how much special time, effort & skill it took me to win my gold medal. I would not preach to others that winning a gold medal is easy. I imagine jhana is the same.

'Overestimation' is common in Buddhism. The Buddha said ignorance (or delusion) is the leader of unskilful qualities. In my view, it is unskillful to debate jhana on a public forum when:

1. Most people do not even know what jhana is; therefore, they cannot determine whether what you are saying is true or false.

2. Those who understand what jhana is do not believe you (Pulsar) have attained jhana.

Buddhism is not for the encouragement of delusions and false speech. If you keep posting: "I have attained jhana" and another keeps posting: "You have not attained jhana", who can judge which person is right or wrong? :shrug:

The Buddha taught a Noble Eightfold Path. Jhana is the last factor of the Path and not the first factor. People should be working on the early factors of the Path and not the last. When the early factors of the Path are mastered, Jhana will occur naturally.

Those who keep posting "PRACTISE JHANA" appear to be illogical. "Jhana" is not something that can be "practised". :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Srilankaputra
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Srilankaputra » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:16 am

Pulsar wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:11 am
DooDoot, perhaps I misremember, so you said
But I do recall saying "jhana" should be be argued about with ordinary people
What does that mean?
What point is engaging in a dispute that does not benefit anyone? I must not waste the
time of others, including yours. We must return to our own resort, and maintain
mindfulness, or the quiet mood. Buddha said in SN 47.6 "Do not stray outside your own resort into the domain of others, Mara will gain access to those who stray outside their own resort into the domain of others... Move in your own ancestral domain" Let us withdraw into our ancestral domains. :candle:
Hi pulsar,

I would say, leave your ideas here as you would seeds in a bird feeder. Birds will come, take what they want and leave.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:21 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:16 am
I would say, leave your ideas here as you would seeds in a bird feeder. Birds will come, take what they want and leave.
Definitely "for the birds". :tongue:
Origin of “for the birds” (Trivial; worthless; only of interest to gullible people.) To say that something is "for the birds" is to call it horse manure.

https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... lible-peop
Regardless, "jhana" is mentioned countless times in the suttas. Why would we listen to Pulsar when we can listen to the Buddha? Pulsar appears to not be explaining how to reach jhana. All Pulsar appears to be posting is their personal belief that their personal self has attained jhana.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Srilankaputra » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:41 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:21 am
Why would we listen to Pulsar when we can listen to the Buddha
'Pride would be folly that disdained help and counsel at need
May be pulsar has reached jhana. Who knows? I don't know. But I will believe or disbelieve when I experienced for my self.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:56 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:41 am
May be pulsar has reached jhana. Who knows? I don't know.
Yes, you don't know.
Srilankaputra wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:41 am
But I will believe or disbelieve when I experienced for my self.
How can you know if you experienced jhana?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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sentinel
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by sentinel » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:16 am


The Buddha taught a Noble Eightfold Path. Jhana is the last factor of the Path and not the first factor. People should be working on the early factors of the Path and not the last. When the early factors of the Path are mastered, Jhana will occur naturally.

Probably you want to add "Right" before the jhana in this context .
:buddha1:

Pulsar
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Re: Between Jhanas and Satipatthanas is there a big difference?

Post by Pulsar » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:44 pm

Srilankaputra and Sentinel Thank you. :candle:

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