Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thomaslaw
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Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:32 am

Dear Dhamma friends,

For a person to become a Buddhist in the Theravada tradition, does any ritual have to perform?

Regards,
Thomas

SarathW
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:46 am

Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el282.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

budo
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by budo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:01 am

No. According to the suttas becoming Buddhist means attaining right view. There are people who call themselves Buddhist their whole lives but still do not have Right View.

The Buddha declares those who do not have Right View to be outside of his community (The Sangha).

SarathW
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:33 am

budo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:01 am
No. According to the suttas becoming Buddhist means attaining right view. There are people who call themselves Buddhist their whole lives but still do not have Right View.

The Buddha declares those who do not have Right View to be outside of his community (The Sangha).
This is not correct.
Anyone take refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is a Buddhist.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18611&p=261588&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

budo
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by budo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:53 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:33 am
budo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:01 am
No. According to the suttas becoming Buddhist means attaining right view. There are people who call themselves Buddhist their whole lives but still do not have Right View.

The Buddha declares those who do not have Right View to be outside of his community (The Sangha).
This is not correct.
Anyone take refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is a Buddhist.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18611&p=261588&hilit=
It is correct. You do not fully understand the meaning of the first fetter.

Having faith in the Buddha is removing the first fetter of doubt of the Buddha. The first 3 fetters are Wrong View fetters.

Therefore attaining faith in the Buddha weakens doubt of the Buddha, which is the beginning of Right View.

Faith in the Buddha needs to be understood and is a deeper subject of conversation that can be broken down further in order to be understood.

sentinel
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by sentinel » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:03 am

Yes, by such we acknowledged ourself as a buddhist . Ritual can be an encouragement uplifting our sense of devotion . It can be an aspect of beginning of purification process .
Mundane spirituality begins with three refuge .
Without devotion , our intellectual rationalisation becomes very dry in the practice .
:buddha1:

budo
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by budo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:19 am

Furthermore
“Mendicants, all those who have come to a conclusion about me are accomplished in view. Of those who are accomplished in view, five conclude their path in this realm, and five conclude their path after leaving this realm behind. Which five conclude their path in this realm? The one who has seven rebirths at most, the one who goes from family to family, the one-seeder, the once returner, and the one who is perfected in the present life. These five conclude their path in this realm.
- AN 10.63


Faith in the Buddha is the very beginning of Right View

Faith in the Buddha is an important and deep subject that needs to be understood.

Ruud
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by Ruud » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:57 am

Once the Blessed One was dwelling among the Sakyas in Nigrodha Park at Kapilavatthu. There, Mahanama the Sakyan approached the Blessed One. Having approached and paid respect to the Blessed One, he sat aside. Then, seated aside, Mahanama the Sakyan said thus to the Blessed One:

"Venerable sir, in what way is one a lay follower?"[1]

"Mahanama, inasmuch as one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge; in that way, Mahanama, one is a lay follower."

"Then, venerable sir, in what way is a lay follower virtuous?"

"Mahanama, inasmuch as a lay follower abstains from destroying living beings; abstains from taking what is not given; abstains from sexual misconduct; abstains from lying; and abstains from wine, liquor and intoxicants that are causes for heedlessness; in that way, Mahanama, a lay follower is virtuous."...
AN 8.25
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .kuma.html
Refuge is all that's needed to become a lay follower, more is needed to start following the path.
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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Aloka
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by Aloka » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:17 am

'

Ajahn Sumedho discusses Refuge in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha:


http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/bds.html


:anjali:

.
Last edited by Aloka on Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

budo
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by budo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:17 am

Ruud wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:57 am

Refuge is all that's needed to become a lay follower, more is needed to start following the path.
Faith is the very beginning of following the path. All that is needed is faith to establish the path, regardless of being a lay follower or not.
Take another person who doesn’t have experiential confidence in the Buddha … the teaching … the Saṅgha … They don’t have laughing wisdom or swift wisdom, nor are they endowed with freedom. Still, they have these qualities: the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. And they have a degree of faith and love for the Buddha. This person, too, doesn’t go to hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. They don’t go to places of loss, bad places, the underworld.
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.24/en/sujato

and they need to have faith in the laws of Karma and rebirth and that there are or were monks/buddhas that saw karma and rebirth:
[1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#fn-1

So if they don't believe in Rebirth or Karma then they have wrong views and are not considered Buddhists according to the Buddha.

And there are more components and teachings they need to have faith in as well, and at least understand, especially the suttas, dependent origination, etc..

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Volo
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by Volo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:36 am

Yes, refuge is all what needed for becoming a follower of the Buddha, not the right view. Buddha even said there are caṇḍāla lay followers:
AN 5.175 wrote:Bhikkhus, possessing five qualities, a lay follower is a caṇḍāla of a lay follower, a stain of a lay follower, the last among lay followers. What five? (1) He is devoid of faith; (2) he is immoral; (3) he is superstitious and believes in auspicious signs, not in kamma; (4) he seeks outside here for a person worthy of offerings; and (5) he first does [meritorious] deeds there. Possessing these five qualities, a lay follower is a caṇḍāla of a lay follower, a stain of a lay follower, the last among lay followers.

Bhikkhus, possessing five qualities, a lay follower is a gem of a lay follower, a red lotus of a lay follower, a white lotus of a lay follower. What five? (1) He is endowed with faith; (2) he is virtuous; (3) he is not superstitious and believes in kamma, not in auspicious signs; (4) he does not seek outside here for a person worthy of offerings; and he first does [meritorious] deeds here. Possessing these five qualities, a lay follower is a gem of a lay follower, a red lotus of a lay follower, a white lotus of a lay follower.”
But he still talks about such a person as a lay follower.

budo
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by budo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:34 am

Volo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:36 am
Yes, refuge is all what needed for becoming a follower of the Buddha, not the right view. Buddha even said there are caṇḍāla lay followers:
AN 5.175 wrote:Bhikkhus, possessing five qualities, a lay follower is a caṇḍāla of a lay follower, a stain of a lay follower, the last among lay followers. What five? (1) He is devoid of faith; (2) he is immoral; (3) he is superstitious and believes in auspicious signs, not in kamma; (4) he seeks outside here for a person worthy of offerings; and (5) he first does [meritorious] deeds there. Possessing these five qualities, a lay follower is a caṇḍāla of a lay follower, a stain of a lay follower, the last among lay followers.

Bhikkhus, possessing five qualities, a lay follower is a gem of a lay follower, a red lotus of a lay follower, a white lotus of a lay follower. What five? (1) He is endowed with faith; (2) he is virtuous; (3) he is not superstitious and believes in kamma, not in auspicious signs; (4) he does not seek outside here for a person worthy of offerings; and he first does [meritorious] deeds here. Possessing these five qualities, a lay follower is a gem of a lay follower, a red lotus of a lay follower, a white lotus of a lay follower.”
But he still talks about such a person as a lay follower.


Candala = outcaste
“Mendicants, a lay follower with five qualities is an outcaste, a stain, and a reject among lay followers.

“Pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato upāsako upāsakacaṇḍālo ca hoti upāsakamalañca upāsakapatikuṭṭho ca.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.175/en/sujato

Furthermore, not having faith = outsider. I remember reading a sutta where the someone asks the Buddha what is the minimum faculty that needs to be developed, and the Buddha discusses each faculty one by one, and then the person asks "What if they don't have faith" and the Buddha says they're an outsider. I'll try to find it.

Right View begins with faith in the Buddha. So yes, Right View is needed. If you doubt Karma and Rebirth, then you doubt the Buddha's teaching.

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Volo
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by Volo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:10 am

budo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:34 am
Candala = outcaste
That is just a translation.
“Pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato upāsako upāsakacaṇḍālo ca hoti upāsakamalañca upāsakapatikuṭṭho ca.
Clearly, Buddha refers to such a person as a lay follower (upāsaka). But anyway, the most clear position of the Buddha about whom to count as a lay follower has been already quoted above by Ruud:
Mahanama, inasmuch as one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge; in that way, Mahanama, one is a lay follower."
Furthermore, not having faith = outsider. I remember reading a sutta where the someone asks the Buddha what is the minimum faculty that needs to be developed, and the Buddha discusses each faculty one by one, and then the person asks "What if they don't have faith" and the Buddha says they're an outsider. I'll try to find it.

Right View begins with faith in the Buddha. So yes, Right View is needed. If you doubt Karma and Rebirth, then you doubt the Buddha's teaching.
Please, provide a canonical reference, where Buddha says that in order to become a lay follower one has to attain the right view. Thanks.

budo
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by budo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:34 am

Volo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:10 am
budo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:34 am
Candala = outcaste
That is just a translation.
“Pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato upāsako upāsakacaṇḍālo ca hoti upāsakamalañca upāsakapatikuṭṭho ca.
Clearly, Buddha refers to such a person as a lay follower (upāsaka). But anyway, the most clear position of the Buddha about whom to count as a lay follower has been already quoted above by Ruud:
Mahanama, inasmuch as one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge; in that way, Mahanama, one is a lay follower."
Furthermore, not having faith = outsider. I remember reading a sutta where the someone asks the Buddha what is the minimum faculty that needs to be developed, and the Buddha discusses each faculty one by one, and then the person asks "What if they don't have faith" and the Buddha says they're an outsider. I'll try to find it.

Right View begins with faith in the Buddha. So yes, Right View is needed. If you doubt Karma and Rebirth, then you doubt the Buddha's teaching.
Please, provide a canonical reference, where Buddha says that in order to become a lay follower one has to attain the right view. Thanks.
Clearly one cannot be a follower of the Buddha if they do not believe or have faith in the Buddha. So cleary Candala is a rejection of a lay follower, as the sutta says.

As I said, lay or not is irrelevant, what matters is if they have faith. If they do not have faith then they doubt the Buddha, if they doubt the Buddha they are outside the disposition of the sangha. Hence if you look at several suttas below Faith Follower one is an outsider.

Also if you read several of suttas, one only claims to go for refuge AFTER hearing a dhamma talk, not before. Therefore they attain faith upon hearing the dhamma. Even the suttas say that one attains Stream Entry Path (ie a Faith or Dhamma follower) after hearing the dhamma with proper attention.

So if you have no faith, right view does not establish, and thus one is an outsider.

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Volo
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Re: Ritual for becoming a Buddhist

Post by Volo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:45 am

budo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:34 am
Volo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:10 am
budo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:34 am
Candala = outcaste
That is just a translation.
“Pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato upāsako upāsakacaṇḍālo ca hoti upāsakamalañca upāsakapatikuṭṭho ca.
Clearly, Buddha refers to such a person as a lay follower (upāsaka). But anyway, the most clear position of the Buddha about whom to count as a lay follower has been already quoted above by Ruud:
Mahanama, inasmuch as one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, has gone to the Sangha for refuge; in that way, Mahanama, one is a lay follower."
Furthermore, not having faith = outsider. I remember reading a sutta where the someone asks the Buddha what is the minimum faculty that needs to be developed, and the Buddha discusses each faculty one by one, and then the person asks "What if they don't have faith" and the Buddha says they're an outsider. I'll try to find it.

Right View begins with faith in the Buddha. So yes, Right View is needed. If you doubt Karma and Rebirth, then you doubt the Buddha's teaching.
Please, provide a canonical reference, where Buddha says that in order to become a lay follower one has to attain the right view. Thanks.
Clearly one cannot be a follower of the Buddha if they do not believe or have faith in the Buddha. So cleary Candala is a rejection of a lay follower, as the sutta says.

As I said, lay or not is irrelevant, what matters is if they have faith. If they do not have faith then they doubt the Buddha, if they doubt the Buddha they are outside the disposition of the sangha. Hence if you look at several suttas below Faith Follower one is an outsider.

Also if you read several of suttas, one only claims to go for refuge AFTER hearing a dhamma talk, not before. Therefore they attain faith upon hearing the dhamma. Even the suttas say that one attains Stream Entry Path (ie a Faith or Dhamma follower) after hearing the dhamma with proper attention.

So if you have no faith, right view does not establish, and thus one is an outsider.
So, still no references to support your point. Okay, then at the moment there is nothing I can reply to. Cheers.

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