SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW »

Hi Santa
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you on this occasion.
If only 2000 out of 7 billion people can become a Sotapanna, might as well given up following the Path for many people.
This is what someone called Arahantification of Sotapanna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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robertk
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by robertk »

SarathW wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:39 am
form wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:26 am Stream enterer is as rare as the ability to split hair with an arrow.
Could you give the Sutta support for this?
What Buddha said was as far as there are people who follow the Noble Eightfold Path there will not be lack of Arahants in this world.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"What do you think, Ananda: Which is harder to do, harder to master — to shoot arrows through a tiny keyhole without missing, one right after the other, or to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip?"[1]

"This, lord, is harder to do, harder to master — to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip."

"And they, Ananda, pierce what is even harder to pierce, those who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

"Therefore, Ananda, your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress
.

Even though the path is difficult to understand and follow, it can be done- and while we have a human life and the sasana is extant, it behoves us to develop it so that sometime in the future, maybe a future life it will flourish.
sentinel
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by sentinel »

SarathW wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:22 pm Hi Santa
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you on this occasion.
If only 2000 out of 7 billion people can become a Sotapanna, might as well given up following the Path for many people.
This is what someone called Arahantification of Sotapanna.
You are focusing on the result instead of the practising . That thinking is one of the five hindrances .
You always gain by giving
santa100
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:If only 2000 out of 7 billion people can become a Sotapanna, might as well given up following the Path for many people.
This is what someone called Arahantification of Sotapanna.
But if you think it's easier to pump out more Sotapannas than those filthy rich billionaires, then this is what someone'd call the Bastardization of Sotapanna.
binocular
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by binocular »

SarathW wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:22 pmIf only 2000 out of 7 billion people can become a Sotapanna, might as well given up following the Path for many people.
On what do you base this assessment?

Why should 2000 out of 7 billion make for a low probability?

In some cases, that's the probability of finding a job.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Disciple
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by Disciple »

robertk wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:18 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:39 am
form wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:26 am Stream enterer is as rare as the ability to split hair with an arrow.
Could you give the Sutta support for this?
What Buddha said was as far as there are people who follow the Noble Eightfold Path there will not be lack of Arahants in this world.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"What do you think, Ananda: Which is harder to do, harder to master — to shoot arrows through a tiny keyhole without missing, one right after the other, or to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip?"[1]

"This, lord, is harder to do, harder to master — to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip."

"And they, Ananda, pierce what is even harder to pierce, those who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

"Therefore, Ananda, your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress
.

Even though the path is difficult to understand and follow, it can be done- and while we have a human life and the sasana is extant, it behoves us to develop it so that sometime in the future, maybe a future life it will flourish.
If stream entry was that rare in the time of Gautama then I can't imagine how much more rare it would be in this day and age.
sunnat
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by sunnat »

Earlier in that sutta Ananda has seen a group of boys repeatedly shooting arrows through a tiny hole. When he returned from his alms round he tells Buddha what he had seen. Buddha himself was an accomplished archer so he knew what was and was not difficult. Nowhere does he say it is rare to succeed, just that it is considerably more difficult than the feats of the boys. Somewhere I read or heard that at the time of the Buddha some 17 million people attained stream entry.
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robertk
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by robertk »

sunnat wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:22 pm Earlier in that sutta Ananda has seen a group of boys repeatedly shooting arrows through a tiny hole. When he returned from his alms round he tells Buddha what he had seen. Buddha himself was an accomplished archer so he knew what was and was not difficult. Nowhere does he say it is rare to succeed, just that it is considerably more difficult than the feats of the boys. Somewhere I read or heard that at the time of the Buddha some 17 million people attained stream entry.
Yes indeed, crores of laypeople and monks attained at the time of the Buddha - they had strived for innumerable lives to penetrate the deep meaning of the Dhamma.

However that sutta is indeed demonstrating just how hard it is to achieve this - not to discourage but in fact to encourage the proper attitude and respect.
I gave the link to Thanissaro's translation as that is online. But the PTS translation is better I think:
'Kindred Sayings' V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, par. 5, The keyhole

'Here, lord, robing myself in the forenoon and taking bowl and outer robe I set out for Vesali on my begging rounds. Then, lord, I saw a number of Licchavi youths in the gymnasium making practice at archery, shooting even from a distance through a very small keyhole, and splitting an arrow, shot after shot, with never a miss. And I said to myself, lord: 'Practised shots are these Licchavi youths! Well practised shots indeed are these Licchavi youths, to be able even at a distance to splinter an arrow through a very small keyhole, shot after shot, with never a miss!' '

'Now what think you, Ananda? Which is the harder, which is the harder task to compass: To shoot like that or to pierce one strand of hair, a hundred times divided, with another strand?'

'Why, lord, of course to split a hair in such a way is the harder, much the harder task.'

'Just so, Ananda, they who penetrate the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, pierce through something much harder to pierce.
SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW »

Perhaps this Sutta is referring to Arahnats, not to Sotapanna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW »

“Bhikkhus, the Dhamma well proclaimed by me thus is clear…free of patchwork. In the Dhamma well proclaimed by me thus, which is clear…free of patchwork, those bhikkhus who are Dhamma-followers or faith-followers are all headed for enlightenment.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mn22
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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cappuccino
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by cappuccino »

binocular wrote: Who is actually happy about the prospect of becoming, for all practical intents and purposes, annulled, annihilated?
“Don’t say that … Don’t misrepresent the Blessed One.
It’s not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say,

‘A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes,
and does not exist after death.'


Yamaka Sutta
DarrenM
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by DarrenM »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:56 am
Nwad wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:39 am The shortest path to Enter the Stream is to observe our thoughts as not me not mine not myself. Then, if there is conditions of 8NP, the Fruit will be realised.
The beginning of 8NP to me is five precepts as the first 5 steps of both are either the same or parallel.
Next what are the criteria of being sotapanna and it is
1. Getting rid of sakkaya ditthi ( egoness)
2. Silabbata paramasa ( getting rid of observances as rituals and praying to deities etc.)
3. Vicikicca ( doubt about tri ratna or budda damma sangha).
All as sakkaya ditthi, silabbatha paramasa, vicikicca are being got rid of by observing the 5 precepts.
One who sincerely observes panca sila has perfect faith in budda damma, and with such observance have got rid of rituals and prayers to deities or objects as sun moon etc.
As of sakkaya ditthi one cannot observe the first two precepts and the rest 3 too, with any doubt in five precepts that is based on caturaraya satya.
Hence may I infer that perfect observance of five precepts is the way to sotapanna for a lay buddhist.
Hello Justin. I am interested in the part I have highlighted, could you explain more please?
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
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confusedlayman
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by confusedlayman »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:45 pm
binocular wrote: Who is actually happy about the prospect of becoming, for all practical intents and purposes, annulled, annihilated?
“Don’t say that … Don’t misrepresent the Blessed One.
It’s not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say,

‘A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes,
and does not exist after death.'


Yamaka Sutta
then arhant can come alive if they want again?
dont think
Zdenek
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by Zdenek »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:11 am SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

The above Sutta series gives us some assurance even if you not a Sotapanna. Basically, if you understand at least one aspect of Dependent Origination you are assured Sotapanna state in this very life.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25-cakkhuvagga

“Mendicants, the eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing. Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato
If I "ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing" is a statement of impermanent mind, it is a changing statement. Is still exist? I bet impermanently only.

So please calm down good persons, your whoopees are perishing only. :smile:
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confusedlayman
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by confusedlayman »

Zdenek wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:51 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:11 am SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

The above Sutta series gives us some assurance even if you not a Sotapanna. Basically, if you understand at least one aspect of Dependent Origination you are assured Sotapanna state in this very life.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25-cakkhuvagga

“Mendicants, the eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing. Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato
If I "ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing" is a statement of impermanent mind, it is a changing statement. Is still exist? I bet impermanently only.

So please calm down good persons, your whoopees are perishing only. :smile:
there is still conditioning leading to new process
dont think
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