SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:22 pm

Hi Santa
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you on this occasion.
If only 2000 out of 7 billion people can become a Sotapanna, might as well given up following the Path for many people.
This is what someone called Arahantification of Sotapanna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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robertk
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by robertk » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:18 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:39 am
form wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:26 am
Stream enterer is as rare as the ability to split hair with an arrow.
Could you give the Sutta support for this?
What Buddha said was as far as there are people who follow the Noble Eightfold Path there will not be lack of Arahants in this world.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"What do you think, Ananda: Which is harder to do, harder to master — to shoot arrows through a tiny keyhole without missing, one right after the other, or to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip?"[1]

"This, lord, is harder to do, harder to master — to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip."

"And they, Ananda, pierce what is even harder to pierce, those who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

"Therefore, Ananda, your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress
.

Even though the path is difficult to understand and follow, it can be done- and while we have a human life and the sasana is extant, it behoves us to develop it so that sometime in the future, maybe a future life it will flourish.

sentinel
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by sentinel » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:31 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:22 pm
Hi Santa
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you on this occasion.
If only 2000 out of 7 billion people can become a Sotapanna, might as well given up following the Path for many people.
This is what someone called Arahantification of Sotapanna.
You are focusing on the result instead of the practising . That thinking is one of the five hindrances .
:coffee:

santa100
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:15 pm

SarathW wrote:If only 2000 out of 7 billion people can become a Sotapanna, might as well given up following the Path for many people.
This is what someone called Arahantification of Sotapanna.
But if you think it's easier to pump out more Sotapannas than those filthy rich billionaires, then this is what someone'd call the Bastardization of Sotapanna.

binocular
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by binocular » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:26 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:22 pm
If only 2000 out of 7 billion people can become a Sotapanna, might as well given up following the Path for many people.
On what do you base this assessment?

Why should 2000 out of 7 billion make for a low probability?

In some cases, that's the probability of finding a job.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Disciple
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by Disciple » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:05 pm

robertk wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:18 pm
SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:39 am
form wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:26 am
Stream enterer is as rare as the ability to split hair with an arrow.
Could you give the Sutta support for this?
What Buddha said was as far as there are people who follow the Noble Eightfold Path there will not be lack of Arahants in this world.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"What do you think, Ananda: Which is harder to do, harder to master — to shoot arrows through a tiny keyhole without missing, one right after the other, or to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip?"[1]

"This, lord, is harder to do, harder to master — to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip."

"And they, Ananda, pierce what is even harder to pierce, those who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

"Therefore, Ananda, your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress
.

Even though the path is difficult to understand and follow, it can be done- and while we have a human life and the sasana is extant, it behoves us to develop it so that sometime in the future, maybe a future life it will flourish.
If stream entry was that rare in the time of Gautama then I can't imagine how much more rare it would be in this day and age.

sunnat
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by sunnat » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:22 pm

Earlier in that sutta Ananda has seen a group of boys repeatedly shooting arrows through a tiny hole. When he returned from his alms round he tells Buddha what he had seen. Buddha himself was an accomplished archer so he knew what was and was not difficult. Nowhere does he say it is rare to succeed, just that it is considerably more difficult than the feats of the boys. Somewhere I read or heard that at the time of the Buddha some 17 million people attained stream entry.

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robertk
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by robertk » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:19 pm

sunnat wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:22 pm
Earlier in that sutta Ananda has seen a group of boys repeatedly shooting arrows through a tiny hole. When he returned from his alms round he tells Buddha what he had seen. Buddha himself was an accomplished archer so he knew what was and was not difficult. Nowhere does he say it is rare to succeed, just that it is considerably more difficult than the feats of the boys. Somewhere I read or heard that at the time of the Buddha some 17 million people attained stream entry.
Yes indeed, crores of laypeople and monks attained at the time of the Buddha - they had strived for innumerable lives to penetrate the deep meaning of the Dhamma.

However that sutta is indeed demonstrating just how hard it is to achieve this - not to discourage but in fact to encourage the proper attitude and respect.
I gave the link to Thanissaro's translation as that is online. But the PTS translation is better I think:
'Kindred Sayings' V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, par. 5, The keyhole

'Here, lord, robing myself in the forenoon and taking bowl and outer robe I set out for Vesali on my begging rounds. Then, lord, I saw a number of Licchavi youths in the gymnasium making practice at archery, shooting even from a distance through a very small keyhole, and splitting an arrow, shot after shot, with never a miss. And I said to myself, lord: 'Practised shots are these Licchavi youths! Well practised shots indeed are these Licchavi youths, to be able even at a distance to splinter an arrow through a very small keyhole, shot after shot, with never a miss!' '

'Now what think you, Ananda? Which is the harder, which is the harder task to compass: To shoot like that or to pierce one strand of hair, a hundred times divided, with another strand?'

'Why, lord, of course to split a hair in such a way is the harder, much the harder task.'

'Just so, Ananda, they who penetrate the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, pierce through something much harder to pierce.

SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:41 pm

Perhaps this Sutta is referring to Arahnats, not to Sotapanna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:15 pm

“Bhikkhus, the Dhamma well proclaimed by me thus is clear…free of patchwork. In the Dhamma well proclaimed by me thus, which is clear…free of patchwork, those bhikkhus who are Dhamma-followers or faith-followers are all headed for enlightenment.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mn22
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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