SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by binocular » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:43 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:34 am
I was a bit disappointed not much discussion on this very important post.
Hm.
Do people rejoice at the prospect of their annullment?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:00 am

Why not?
Eevn Buddha exclaimed "Anna Kondanna"
I think Udana is all about rejoycing of Buddha's attainment.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by binocular » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:16 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:00 am
I think Udana is all about rejoycing of Buddha's attainment.
Sure, many rejoice about the Buddha's attainment.

But how many people actually look forward to attaining nibbana themselves?
Who is actually happy about the prospect of becoming, for all practical intents and purposes, annulled, annihilated?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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mikenz66
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:22 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:00 am
Why not?
Eevn Buddha exclaimed "Anna Kondanna"
Atha kho bhagavā imaṃ udānaṃ udānesi:
Then the Buddha was inspired to exclaim:

“aññāsi vata bho, koṇḍañño, aññāsi vata bho, koṇḍañño”ti.
“Koṇḍañña has really understood! Koṇḍañña has really understood!”

Iti hidaṃ āyasmato koṇḍaññassa “aññāsikoṇḍañño” tveva nāmaṃ ahosīti.
And that’s how Venerable Koṇḍañña came to be known as “Koṇḍañña Who Understood”.
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/sujato#14.1

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Antaradhana
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by Antaradhana » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:46 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:11 am
By the way what is the meaning of "Anthardana"?
Disappearance.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

sakyan
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by sakyan » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:11 am

The above Sutta series gives us some assurance even if you not a Sotapanna. Basically, if you understand at least one aspect of Dependent Origination you are assured Sotapanna state in this very life.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25-cakkhuvagga

“Mendicants, the eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing. Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato
I am pretty much sure the faith followers and dhamma followers are the noble ariyas who have attained the magga(path) to sotappana and are not ordinary individuals.

We have Dhammapada 100 as a proof for this.

Here the executioner Ven Tambhadathika attained anuloma nana a stage very near to sotappana magga after hearing the dhamma from Ven Sariputta and died, after death he was reborn in Tushita.

The Buddha didn't called him a sotappana but said that he was one who attained anuloma nana before death.

I guess the faith followers and dhamma followers have gained a certain level of insight to consider all dhamma as impermanent with faith or wisdom faculty as a dominant factor while attaining sotapanna magga.

As per my understanding Visuddhimagga says the same thing about faith followers and dhamma followers.

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by sunnat » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:29 am

santa100 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:30 am
... by looking at the entire paragraph, the obvious question is, what is the metric to prove that one's indeed had "placed faith in these teachings and resolves on them" to be considered a follower by faith? And the answer is in the subsequent phrases: "one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts".
Important point.

Further: ""One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

This knowing and seeing is something that the (steadfast, diligent) faith and dhamma follower MUST do in order for stream entry. Faith and Pondering is not by itself sufficient.

"one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill." plus the knowing and seeing by direct experience: bhavanamaya panna. Not just thinking and believing.

It is that that makes it difficult. Firstly understanding just that, secondly actually doing it.

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Nwad
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by Nwad » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:39 am

The shortest path to Enter the Stream is to observe our thoughts as not me not mine not myself. Then, if there is conditions of 8NP, the Fruit will be realised.

justindesilva
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by justindesilva » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:56 am

Nwad wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:39 am
The shortest path to Enter the Stream is to observe our thoughts as not me not mine not myself. Then, if there is conditions of 8NP, the Fruit will be realised.
The beginning of 8NP to me is five precepts as the first 5 steps of both are either the same or parallel.
Next what are the criteria of being sotapanna and it is
1. Getting rid of sakkaya ditthi ( egoness)
2. Silabbata paramasa ( getting rid of observances as rituals and praying to deities etc.)
3. Vicikicca ( doubt about tri ratna or budda damma sangha).
All as sakkaya ditthi, silabbatha paramasa, vicikicca are being got rid of by observing the 5 precepts.
One who sincerely observes panca sila has perfect faith in budda damma, and with such observance have got rid of rituals and prayers to deities or objects as sun moon etc.
As of sakkaya ditthi one cannot observe the first two precepts and the rest 3 too, with any doubt in five precepts that is based on caturaraya satya.
Hence may I infer that perfect observance of five precepts is the way to sotapanna for a lay buddhist.

SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:10 am

You find five precepts in other religions as well.
Hence observing five precepts alone will not help to become a Sotapanna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Nwad
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by Nwad » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:07 am

justindesilva wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:56 am
Hence may I infer that perfect observance of five precepts is the way to sotapanna for a lay buddhist.
Yes, if one have deep and sensere faith in Triple Gem and logical understanding of it, at the moment of the death it's said that he will realise the Fruit.

But realisation of the Fruit it's a most important event in spiritual life of those who realised it during the life. It's "dramatical" as earth quake, and the world in no more the same as before, you cant de-fruit or forgot it, it have Unconditioned as his base, that why it uproot Fetters. It's said that the Fruit of stream entry is the most important and dramatical, more than fruit of once or non returner, who are more subtles and one need to check his mind for long time before being sure that all 5 low fetters are uprooted, but stream entry is said to be a change of lineage that's why is so powerfull.

Keeping 5 precepts is good to reborn as human, and be able to meet Dhamma again. But on it's own they don't change ones mind, Arya Sila is one of results of fruit, not fruit itself, but without 5 precepts, as you said, there is no 8NP, and without 8NP there is no conditions to fruition.

Imho

justindesilva
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by justindesilva » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:44 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:10 am
You find five precepts in other religions as well.
Hence observing five precepts alone will not help to become a Sotapanna.
In Theistic religions with the faith in an all powerful god the five precepts are based on the ten commandments of the old testament. Those followers obey the rules as commandments. But a follower of Buddha damma observes the five precepts on an understanding of caturarya satya explained by lord Buddha.
Hence there is a difference in the observation of 5 precepts by others of different religions against the followers of Buddha darma.

form
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by form » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:26 am

Stream enterer is as rare as the ability to split hair with an arrow.

SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:39 am

form wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:26 am
Stream enterer is as rare as the ability to split hair with an arrow.
Could you give the Sutta support for this?
What Buddha said was as far as there are people who follow the Noble Eightfold Path there will not be lack of Arahants in this world.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by santa100 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:32 pm

SarathW wrote:What Buddha said was as far as there are people who follow the Noble Eightfold Path there will not be lack of Arahants in this world.
Unfortunately the above provides no info. on the estimated quantity of noble disciples, not even some rough estimation. So while it's probably a stretch to compare the odds to splitting hair with an arrow, it's certainly not easy to attain Sotapanna-hood. If we use some plain old logic here, there're roughly ~ 2,000 billionaires in the world today, and there's no doubt it'd take quite some extraordinary previous-life-merit and current-life-effort to become a member of this club right? Now, unless one can say for certain that the amount of merit and effort it'd take to become a world-transcending Sotapanna is less than those required of a worldly billionaire, we'll have to conclude that the odds, while not terribly bad, is certainly absolutely not some stroll in the park.

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