SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:11 am

SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

The above Sutta series gives us some assurance even if you not a Sotapanna. Basically, if you understand at least one aspect of Dependent Origination you are assured Sotapanna state in this very life.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25-cakkhuvagga

“Mendicants, the eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing. Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:12 am

Greetings,

:toast:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by Aline » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:28 am

I hope you are correct SarathW

SarathW
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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:34 am

Wow!
Aline, you made my day. Your first post to my question.
I was a bit disappointed not much discussion on this very important post.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by sentinel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:46 am

We would certainly need to have certification .
:coffee:

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by budo » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:59 am

As I've always said, and said again in the rituals thread from earlier this week.

Stream entry fruit = seeing dependent origination (4NT) or dependent originated phenomena (3 characteristics)

Stream entry path (aka faith or dhamma followers) = understanding and accepting dependent origination or dependent origination phenomena (After hearing a dhamma talk about it)

What differentiates the path attainer from the fruit attainer? First jhana.
Without taking pleasure in being alone in seclusion, it’s impossible to learn the patterns of the mind (nimitta). Without learning the patterns of the mind, it’s impossible to fulfill right view. Without fulfilling right view, it’s impossible to fulfill right immersion. Without fulfilling right immersion, it’s impossible to give up the fetters. Without giving up the fetters, it’s impossible to realize extinguishment.

- AN 6.68

Hence the Dhamma-viharin sutta that says all you need to do is read suttas (20-30% of the time in a day) and practice jhanas (70-80% of the time in a day). That's it.

What makes someone a Buddhist? Accepting DO or DOP. Why does it make them a Buddhist? Because only Buddhists have access to Maha-Abhinnata, the sixth and only supermundane Abhinna that can arise in fourth jhana. Anyone who never hears DO or DOP will never attain Maha-Abhinnata, only a Buddha can make someone aware of it.

Therefore being Buddhist isn't a status symbol or a group, it is an ABILITY to attain something in nature that others cannot, because they lack that viral information.

Taking refuge is meaningless and pointless if you did not hear the true dhamma, even the Buddha says in MN 126 vows are useless if you do not understand or practice.

And finally, path and fruit do not have to arise sequentially together in a short time, they can arise separately at the beginning and death of ones life, many years a part.
Last edited by budo on Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:19 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by budo » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:04 am

And the final finally - It is totally possible for lay normal people to attain first jhana from time to time
Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, “Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
https://suttacentral.net/an5.176/en/thanissaro

You do not need to be a super ascetic to attain jhanas occasionally. Mastery maybe, but not for occasional attainment.

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by binocular » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:56 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:34 am
I was a bit disappointed not much discussion on this very important post.
What did you expect, and why?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:07 pm

I like to know your opinion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by DNS » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:27 pm

There are two extreme camps some buddhists belong to on this issue. One is that stream-entry is virtually impossible to attain and the other extreme that it is very easy.

In my opinion, it's a little of both or more of a middle way. On the one hand it is difficult to come across the Dhamma and practice it diligently; there are lots of distractions in the modern world and many never come across anything written on the Dhamma their whole life. On the other hand, we see in the suttas many lay people and monks hear a Dhamma sermon and by the end of the talk, they attain stream entry. From the Commentaries we hear that these people had the kammic fruits from past lives to be reborn at the time of a samma-sam-buddha and so had some preparation. But if we take the suttas at face-value exactly as what is written, we can see that they were puthujjanas at the beginning of the talk and then became stream-entrants by the end of the Dhamma talk; no hours or weeks or months of meditation.

Some might say if it were that easy, then there would be millions of stream-entrants on the planet? Not necessarily, notice from Sarath's posts in other threads and from Bhante Gunaratana's autobiography (from Sarath and Bhante G's observations), many Buddhists, even those born into buddhism, are not aware of basic doctrines on DO, let alone understanding the differences between one-life model, three-life model, etc anatta, etc.

I'm not trash talking IRL temples and meditation centers (I attend them myself), but go to almost any of those in your city and ask them their opinion about 1-life vs. 3-life model paṭiccasamuppāda and they'll look at you like you came from another planet.

However, the good people on DW, Sutta Central, and other buddhist forums appear to have deep knowledge and understanding of these things, so who knows, it might appear easy, but maybe it isn't and those on the forums just happen to be those with little dust in their eyes?

:toast:

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:41 pm

It could be that stream entry is simple--just not easy. Or at least, not easy for the temperament of most people to grasp. Against the stream and all that.

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by Zom » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:06 pm

In my opinion, it's a little of both or more of a middle way. On the one hand it is difficult to come across the Dhamma and practice it diligently; there are lots of distractions in the modern world and many never come across anything written on the Dhamma their whole life. On the other hand, we see in the suttas many lay people and monks hear a Dhamma sermon and by the end of the talk, they attain stream entry
Stream-winners themselves differ greatly. There are those called dhamma-saddhanussaries. They even don't have complete right views (as these come only with the fruit). Still - they will get it in this very life for sure. And even among those who do have right views there are those who can reach arahantship in this life or in 2 lives... 3..4.. up to seven (which is insane amount of time, taking into account possible future rebirths as devas). So, it is much easier to attain lowest level of stream-entry than to attain highest one. Again, the intensity of practice of all these different types will be different as well.

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:31 pm

I reflected today on the subject of the path and the fruit of sotapanna. I would like to briefly summarize. Perhaps this is a suitable topic.

There two ways to the fruit of sotapanna: the path of faith and the path of Dhamma. On the path of faith are those who are inclined to faith and to strict observance of regulations (instructions), and on the path of Dhamma - those who are inclined to reflection and analysis. At the same time, among those who follow the first path, the tendency to the fetter of “attachment to the rules and regulations” is strong, while those who follow the second path, the tendency to the fetter “skeptical doubts”. The tendency to the fetter “views on the existence of the self” is present in those and others. In my opinion, these two paths converge in one way, before reaching sotapanna fruit, and, therefore, having a tendency towards one of the paths, another path should be developed, i.e. if a person has a strong faith, he should not neglect the study and analysis of Dhamma, and if a person is inclined to study and analyze Dhamma, he should not neglect the development of faith. Accordingly, the development of good quality, which is characteristic of another way, but is not sufficiently developed in man, since he has a different inclination, will be an antidote to the existing fetters. So studying and analyzing Dhamma will weaken the attachment to rules and regulations, and the development of faith will weaken skeptical doubts. The antidote to views on the existence of the self, is the contemplation of the three characteristics of the observed phenomena: impermanence, suffering and impersonality.

When all three lower fetters are discarded, the person becomes sotapanna, i.e. he not casts doubt that Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, are the highest jewels in the world; discards attachment to rules and regulations, i.e. it does not follow the path of faith alone; rejects views on the existence of the self, since he has understand impermanence, suffering and impersonality at a rather deep level. From this it follows that he engendered an inevitable following on the Path, and in the Canon it is said that he will inevitably reach nibbana in no more than seven births. Also, the sotapanna, cannot commit the evil deeds leading to the lower worlds, due to the developed good qualities, the Canon says that the sotapanna it can not to be born in the world below the humans.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:11 am

:goodpost: Antaradana
By the way what is the meaning of "Anthardana"?
We use this word in Sri Lanka very often.
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

Post by santa100 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:30 am

SarathW wrote:SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!
Well, trying not to either bastardizing nor arahantifying the Teaching, it's important to investigate the entire paragraph in SN 25.1:
SN 25.1 - Bodhi's translation wrote:At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

So by looking at the entire paragraph, the obvious question is, what is the metric to prove that one's indeed had "placed faith in these teachings and resolves on them" to be considered a follower by faith? And the answer is in the subsequent phrases: "one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts". So while it might be good news for some, it could surely be bad news for others.

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