Past, present and future all exist together?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
form
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by form » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:00 pm

Hey guys, what about the accounts of Buddha and others going into the past and knowing the future? I am not sure if i have read account of him going into the future, but he certainly know about the past.

SarathW
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:03 pm

SN22.62 Scope of language?


https://suttacentral.net/sn22.62/en/sujato

==============
See the link for further discussion.

Clearly the past, present and future (was, is, will be) are all evident and incontestible (i.e., uncorrupted and without defilements). Therefore, this sutta implies that the corruption and defilements arise taking the past, present and future as other than what they are. Indeed, suffering arises when we take the past as the present (remorse or sadness). Or suffering arises when we take the past as the future (craving or aversion). Or suffering arises when we take the past or future as the present (delusion). Mixing up past, present and future is suffering.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34582
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:24 pm

As far as I understand it the relativity of simultaneity falsifies presentism and so a block universe where the past, present and future always “exist” becomes more likely.

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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:56 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:24 pm
As far as I understand it the relativity of simultaneity falsifies presentism and so a block universe where the past, present and future always “exist” becomes more likely.
Do note, however, that the relativity of simultaneity does not affect the time ordering of events that can affect each other. Causes are in the past and effects in the future...

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SarathW
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:46 am

Arahants actions are not subject to cause and effect.
They are called Kiriya Citta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:12 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:46 am
Arahants actions are not subject to cause and effect.
I'm not sure what you mean by "not subject to cause and effect". I think you mean that they do not create kamma.
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:46 am
They are called Kiriya Citta.
https://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bu ... htm#kiriya

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form
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by form » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:35 am

Maybe many confusions on this topic for us, modern people stemmed from our advancement in understanding in physics. Fourth dimension, parallel universe. Our minds are not the same as ancient people.

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zerotime
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by zerotime » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:09 am

Give up the past, give up the future, give up the present. Having reached the end of existences, with a mind freed from all (conditioned things), you will not again undergo birth and decay.

- Dhammapada 348 - Uggasena Vatthu

form wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:35 am
Maybe many confusions on this topic for us, modern people stemmed from our advancement in understanding in physics. Fourth dimension, parallel universe. Our minds are not the same as ancient people.
not so different, always replete with images beyond the experience, and explained by people who neither experienced that.

The only real change are the priests.

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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by pegembara » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:39 am

In terms of scientific concepts, they do exist separately.

Where a ballistic missile was, where it is now and where it will be in the future can be predicted well in advance. That is how a spacecraft lands on the moon.

But in direct experience, none of them exists. Your past experiences are merely memories, the future expectations seldom come to fruition. Even the so-called present is everchanging and ungraspable. By the time an experience registers(contact), the event is actually over.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

form
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by form » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:59 am

zerotime wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:09 am
Give up the past, give up the future, give up the present. Having reached the end of existences, with a mind freed from all (conditioned things), you will not again undergo birth and decay.

- Dhammapada 348 - Uggasena Vatthu

form wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:35 am
Maybe many confusions on this topic for us, modern people stemmed from our advancement in understanding in physics. Fourth dimension, parallel universe. Our minds are not the same as ancient people.
not so different, always replete with images beyond the experience, and explained by people who neither experienced that.

The only real change are the priests.
Thank you. Coincidentally, i have also returned my focus to dhammapada recently and find its content much more consistent than most others. The verse u quoted has also attracted much of my attention.

justindesilva
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by justindesilva » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:13 am

form wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:35 am
Maybe many confusions on this topic for us, modern people stemmed from our advancement in understanding in physics. Fourth dimension, parallel universe. Our minds are not the same as ancient people.
May I present from J.Krishnamurthi that fear and anxiety arises by projecting the past experiences to the future at present. It is clear here that there is a past present and a future. To be more precise with pancendriya a thought arises and vanishes and that thought becomes the past when another thought arises. A thought ypasts with a cetasika ( quality of a thought as neutral , klesha or aklesha) when a new thought arises that vanishes making way for a future thought. It is this way avidya paccaya sankara occurs.
In fact cuti citta is the last arising thought when a person dies.

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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:32 am

pegembara wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:39 am
In terms of scientific concepts, they do exist separately.

Where a ballistic missile was, where it is now and where it will be in the future can be predicted well in advance. That is how a spacecraft lands on the moon.

But in direct experience, none of them exists. Your past experiences are merely memories, the future expectations seldom come to fruition. Even the so-called present is everchanging and ungraspable. By the time an experience registers(contact), the event is actually over.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What is really past means?
Your past is not my past.
Say if someone shows me and you an un known object how you and I will describe is not the same.
Perhaps we both may see the colour and the shape of the object. However if I am color blind what I am perceiving is not the same as you.
What there is the continuous change. (impermanence) Which we call time.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:03 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:32 am
pegembara wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:39 am
In terms of scientific concepts, they do exist separately.

Where a ballistic missile was, where it is now and where it will be in the future can be predicted well in advance. That is how a spacecraft lands on the moon.

But in direct experience, none of them exists. Your past experiences are merely memories, the future expectations seldom come to fruition. Even the so-called present is everchanging and ungraspable. By the time an experience registers(contact), the event is actually over.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What is really past means?
Your past is not my past.
Say if someone shows me and you an un known object how you and I will describe is not the same.
Perhaps we both may see the colour and the shape of the object. However if I am color blind what I am perceiving is not the same as you.
What there is the continuous change. (impermanence) Which we call time.
Yes, it's change that we notice, but without a fourth dimension (time) there could be no change.

It's then a question of whether we try to resist or deny the change, or whether we can "go with the flow".

We discussed SN24.1 here recently:
https://suttacentral.net/sn24.1/en/sujato
Buddha save me from new-agers!

justindesilva
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by justindesilva » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:05 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:03 am
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:32 am
pegembara wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:39 am
In terms of scientific concepts, they do exist separately.

Where a ballistic missile was, where it is now and where it will be in the future can be predicted well in advance. That is how a spacecraft lands on the moon.

But in direct experience, none of them exists. Your past experiences are merely memories, the future expectations seldom come to fruition. Even the so-called present is everchanging and ungraspable. By the time an experience registers(contact), the event is actually over.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What is really past means?
Your past is not my past.


Yes, it's change that we notice, but without a fourth dimension (time) there could be no change.

It's then a question of whether we try to resist or deny the change, or whether we can "go with the flow".

We discussed SN24.1 here recently:
https://suttacentral.net/sn24.1/en/sujato
I believe "going with the flow of life" means travelling with the tanha without resisting or non challenge of greed . Paticca samuppada or DO origination explains that unless greed or upadana ceases we will step on to the next bhava ( existence). Paticca samuppada vibanga sutta explains that by ceasing each condition of paticca samuppada the flow of life or existence will unleash.
That will stop this so called flow of life.

pegembara
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Re: Past, present and future all exist together?

Post by pegembara » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:13 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:32 am
pegembara wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:39 am
In terms of scientific concepts, they do exist separately.

Where a ballistic missile was, where it is now and where it will be in the future can be predicted well in advance. That is how a spacecraft lands on the moon.

But in direct experience, none of them exists. Your past experiences are merely memories, the future expectations seldom come to fruition. Even the so-called present is everchanging and ungraspable. By the time an experience registers(contact), the event is actually over.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What is really past means?
Your past is not my past.
Say if someone shows me and you an un known object how you and I will describe is not the same.
Perhaps we both may see the colour and the shape of the object. However if I am color blind what I am perceiving is not the same as you.
What there is the continuous change. (impermanence) Which we call time.
Yes, you can observe change.

Say you remember someone saying something nasty to you in the "past".
As you observe that memory arising, is the past arising as well or is just your memory?
People can live in their "past" or to be exact they live with the memories which are arising in the present.
They are clinging to ungraspable things.

What exists are only your memories. Not reality.
The brain can’t directly encode the passage of time, but recent work hints at a workaround for putting timestamps on memories of events.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-the- ... -20190212/
Last edited by pegembara on Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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