Nibbana and unconcious state same?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
sunnat
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by sunnat » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:56 am

:anjali: "perceptions as vedana is not felt by an individual say in a state of fainting mode or in sleep" - something is felt by a something when an individual is sleeping. Example: bed sores come to mind. Incapacitated people need to be manually turned so that they don't develop bed sores. Mobile people in deep sleep will continually respond to pressure by shifting position. Is that ability to feel in deep sleep not a part of individual.

justindesilva
Posts: 1049
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:28 am

sunnat wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:56 am
:anjali: "perceptions as vedana is not felt by an individual say in a state of fainting mode or in sleep" - something is felt by a something when an individual is sleeping. Example: bed sores come to mind. Incapacitated people need to be manually turned so that they don't develop bed sores. Mobile people in deep sleep will continually respond to pressure by shifting position. Is that ability to feel in deep sleep not a part of individual.
While in Agreement I wish to follow that there is a difference in consciousness while being awake and being asleep. We have voluntary muscles and involuntary muscles that respond to Vedana. Involuntary muscles normally acts without our will. Perhaps we blink ( eyes) involuntarilly but I believe vingnana is yet active. A neurologist may explain further.

User avatar
Antaradhana
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:56 pm
Location: Saratov, Russia

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:47 pm

Anesthesia, fainting, coma, etc. is impermanent and conditioned states. In addition, there is no certainty that these States are accompanied by a lack of consciousness, and not a very low level of mindfulness.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

auto
Posts: 1225
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by auto » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:31 pm

https://suttacentral.net/an10.7/en/sujato
“But of what was the Venerable Sāriputta percipient on that occasion?”
“One perception arose in me and another perception ceased: ‘The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.’ “
‘Bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ bhavanirodho nibbānan’ti kho me, āvuso, aññāva saññā uppajjati aññāva saññā nirujjhati.
..
At that time I perceived that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.” ‘Bhavanirodho nibbānan’ti saññī ca panāhaṃ, āvuso, tasmiṃ samaye ahosin”ti.
one perception arises, another perception ceases, and then you will be percipient of cessation of continued existence.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What if I were neither to think nor to will?' [3] So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases [4] and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert [5] step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception.
another perception doesn't arise and you are aware of that.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.34/en/sujato
“Reverends, extinguishment is bliss! “sukhamidaṃ, āvuso, nibbānaṃ.
Extinguishment is bliss!” Sukhamidaṃ, āvuso, nibbānan”ti.
When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him: Evaṃ vutte, āyasmā udāyī āyasmantaṃ sāriputtaṃ etadavoca:
“But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?” “kiṃ panettha, āvuso sāriputta, sukhaṃ yadettha natthi vedayitan”ti?

“The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it. “Etadeva khvettha, āvuso, sukhaṃ yadettha natthi vedayitaṃ.
cessation of perception and feeling is equivalent to bhavanirodha?

Bhava is full development of some kind of quality and then it can be ceased.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.101/en/sujato
When a mendicant is not committed to development, they might wish:
Bhāvanānuyogaṃ ananuyuttassa, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno viharato kiñcāpi evaṃ icchā uppajjeyya:
‘If only my mind was freed from the defilements by not grasping!’ Even so, their mind is not freed from defilements by not grasping.
‘aho vata me anupādāya āsavehi cittaṃ vimucceyyā’ti, atha khvassa neva anupādāya āsavehi cittaṃ vimuccati.
Why is that? Taṃ kissa hetu?
It’s because they’re undeveloped. ‘Abhāvitattā’ tissa vacanīyaṃ.
also,

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... ggo-01.htm
“Atthi bhikkhave tad-āyatanaṁ,
“There is that sphere, monks,

yattha neva paṭhavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo,
where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air,

na ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ, na viññānañcāyatanaṁ,
no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness,

na ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ,
no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,

nāyaṁ loko, na paraloko, na ubho Candimasuriyā.
no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun.

Tatrāpāhaṁ bhikkhave neva āgatiṁ vadāmi,
There, monks, I say there is surely no coming,

na gatiṁ, na ṭhitiṁ, na cutiṁ, na upapattiṁ.
no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth.

Appatiṭṭhaṁ appavattaṁ anārammaṇam-evetaṁ,
It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,

- esevanto dukkhassā” ti. 01
- just this is the end of suffering.”
Last edited by auto on Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

2600htz
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by 2600htz » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:46 pm

confusedlayman wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:29 am
Hey guys in unconcious state like in anesthesia, we dont have conciousness and perception and feeling and awareness etc. Even in nibbana, there is cessation of conciousess and perception. If thats true, then experience wise is both state same eventhough we dont have awareness? Im not talking about nibbana in life but after break up of last existance aggregates.
Hello:

No, as far as you can go is stating: "They are not the same".
Nibbana is unconditioned, you can´t talk about it with concepts, but you are trying to grasp it by thinking unconditioned = non-awareness.

This is a great sutta to understand the idea, even if it talks about nibbana as living experience:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"
Regards.

confusedlayman
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by confusedlayman » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:35 am

thanks guys,

I am using conventional mind to think of final goal which is stupidity to core of universe. ANyway If if someone reached the final goal in this forum, pls reply to this thread and say if there is any awareness/conciousness type that is always there irrespective of dependent of other aggregates?
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:22 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#fn-9
This consciousness thus differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media.

confusedlayman
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:36 am

Hey guys, i just found how my question was too stupid. Cessation of conciousness along with 4 other aggregates means they cant Arise. We cant find ourself in agreegates, outside aggregates and in between or outside cosmos or inside cosmos or anywhere. When anything arist its just phenomena arise nd cease. When 5 agreegates are non self, how their interaction can cause a self? Impossible. Seeing everythinng as stress arise and stress cease is the proper way. Saying i arise and i die is wrong bcs I is wrong thought (mistaken thiught) not pointing to reality. Removing I thought and replace it with just things rise nd cease mems I thought never use, so suffering related to I thought dont arise. Ego is just a thought and remove that thought and seeing things as arising and ceasing then we cant say self or non self as self object dont exist, if self object dont exist how come non srlf object exist. Duality is rooted out. I am lucky to read anadaa explanation given to one wanderer who asked him he still suffers even after know all things are non self with this body. I forgot the name of sutta pls share if anyone know. Previosuly in past only aggregates arise and cease and present also same and if possible future also same thing happend. Previsouly i thought I exist due to interction of aggregates nd now the I thought is imaginery and when rooted out after investigation, everything is clear. Now relif is there and the escape from chnging things is seen. Pls someone know the sutta name share so others can have eye opening moment again. Never add ‘I’ to anything and mental prolifertion assiciating with ‘I’ never occurs pls try it.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 6422
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:05 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:36 am
Saying i arise and i die is wrong bcs I is wrong thought (mistaken thought) not pointing to reality. Removing I thought and replace it with just things rise and cease meams I thought never use, so suffering related to I thought dont arise. Ego is just a thought and remove that thought and seeing things as arising and ceasing
Very good.
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:36 am
then we cant say self or non self as self object dont exist, if self object dont exist how come non srlf object exist. Duality is rooted out. I am lucky to read anadaa explanation given to one wanderer
The above is a misunderstanding of this sutta SN 44.10. In SN 44.10, the wanderer asked: "Am I a self?" & "Am I not a self?". Since both questions believed in 'self', they were both wrong or invalid questions. In SN 44.10, the Buddha said to Ananda all things are not-self (anatta). Also, the Buddha did not teach 'non-duality', which appears to be a Mahayana teaching derived from Hinduism.
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:36 am
Previously in past only aggregates arise and cease and present also same and if possible future also same thing happened. Previously i thought I exist due to interaction of aggregates and now the I thought is imaginary and when rooted out after investigation, everything is clear. Now relief is there and the escape from changing things is seen. Never add ‘I’ to anything and mental proliferation associating with ‘I’ never occurs pls try it.
Very good.
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:36 am
When anything arise its just phenomena arise and cease. When 5 aggregates are non self, how their interaction can cause a self? Impossible. Seeing everything as stress arise and stress cease is the proper way
While when anything arise its just phenomena arise and cease is true; when the suttas says: " stress arise and stress cease" (example in SN 12.15 & SN 5.10), I think this refers to arising & ceasing of false view of self rather than just phenomena arise and cease. If it is only phenomena arise and cease then there is no stress. It is mistaken idea of 'self' that is stressful.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by budo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:43 am

An Unconscious Person does not have bright and clear faculties.
"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "What is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of a monk who has died & passed away, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is totally ended, his heat is dissipated, and his faculties are shut down. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."[2]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 6422
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:28 am

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:43 am
An Unconscious Person does not have bright and clear faculties.
Budo. The "faculties" here appear to be the five physical sense organs (rather than mental facilities). :roll:
Friend, there are these five faculties each with a separate range, a separate domain, and they do not experience one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty. Now what do these five faculties — each with a separate range, a separate domain, not experiencing one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:43 am
the cessation of perception & feeling,
Budo. You appear to be claiming there can be consciousness without perception & feeling. :roll:
Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by budo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:28 am
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:43 am
An Unconscious Person does not have bright and clear faculties.
Budo. The "faculties" here appear to be the five physical sense organs (rather than mental facilities). :roll:
Friend, there are these five faculties each with a separate range, a separate domain, and they do not experience one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty. Now what do these five faculties — each with a separate range, a separate domain, not experiencing one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:43 am
the cessation of perception & feeling,
Budo. You appear to be claiming there can be consciousness without perception & feeling. :roll:
Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Yes, yes and I suppose the sutta is fake as well, as the typical DooDoot programming goes.

pegembara
Posts: 1616
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by pegembara » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:11 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:35 am
thanks guys,

I am using conventional mind to think of final goal which is stupidity to core of universe. ANyway If if someone reached the final goal in this forum, pls reply to this thread and say if there is any awareness/conciousness type that is always there irrespective of dependent of other aggregates?
Using your logic, can there be "consciousness" without "something" to be conscious of(object). "Consciousness" is a process, not a thing and there is always an object present unless one is unconscious.

As you hinted, consciousness dependently arises. Consciousness is not "something" floating in ether.
"No, lord, for in many ways the Blessed One has said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'

"Consciousness, monks, is classified simply by the requisite condition in dependence on which it arises. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the eye & forms is classified simply as eye-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the ear & sounds is classified simply as ear-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the nose & aromas is classified simply as nose-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the tongue & flavors is classified simply as tongue-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the body & tactile sensations is classified simply as body-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the intellect & ideas is classified simply as intellect-consciousness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The closest to the anaesthetized state is the state of cessation of perception and feeling except I doubt the faculties are still bright and clear under anaesthesia.
"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "What is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of a monk who has died & passed away, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is totally ended, his heat is dissipated, and his faculties are shut down. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3121
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:55 pm

pegembara wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:11 am
As you hinted, consciousness dependently arises. Consciousness is not "something" floating in ether.
Consciousness without surface

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 6422
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Nibbana and unconcious state same?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:54 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:46 am
Yes, yes and I suppose the sutta is fake as well, as the typical DooDoot programming goes.
Budo. Obviously you misinterpreted the teaching and obviously I kindly properly explained the teaching. :console:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aflum, Dan74, Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 345 guests