Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

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phillyy
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Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by phillyy » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm

Hello learned experts on all things Theravada!

I would like you to do the needful and help me understand the blessed one, Ñāṇavīra Thera. Clearly this man is among the elite as he deconstructed 2600 of Sangha misunderstandings. He removed psychic obstacles like a modern day Ganesh.

One thing that I already like about Ñāṇavīra Thera is the idea that I do not have to learn such confusing things as Abhidhamma and commentaries - this is far too much reading for me, I want to keep it short and sweet.

My question is - gandhabba, gandhabba, what is gandhabba?

The Suttas say when a man and woman come together in act of hanky panky, if mother is fertile and the gandhabba is present than the little baby slithers forth into the existential crisis of existence. Dasein, as the Buddha might say, before his Sangha changed the meaning.

My current understanding is the following, as I know rebirth is not a real thing, but a superstition of the ancients - the gandhabba represents the existential potential in man that is sitting over man's head as he is thrown into existence. The Ontico-Ontological Geworfenheit of this is the existential fear of death, that the blessed Ñāṇavīra overcame when he put a knife to his throat and meticulously slid from left to right thus ridding himself of the Geworfenheit sankhara.

I feel that the Buddha clearly understood the existential plight of man, but i must know what is this gandhabba according to the venerable teacher.

Does Gandhabba preceed avijha or proceed according to the blessed master Thera?

And also please do not use SN 12.2 in conversation as I feel that this is not an authentic sutta.


thank you.

“The word 'inauthentic' is used by Heidegger to describe the ostrich-like attitude of the man who seeks to escape from his inescapable self-responsibility by becoming an anonymous member of a crowd. This is the normal attitude of nearly everybody.
The Venerable one
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Idappaccayata
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by Idappaccayata » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:35 pm

You should consider reading nanavira before asking such a strange (I hope sarcastic) question.
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:13 am

phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
...I know rebirth is not a real thing, but a superstition of the ancients.
Never mind what gandhabba is. Start at the beginning with strong foundations.
Last edited by JamesTheGiant on Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:46 am

phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
My question is - gandhabba, gandhabba, what is gandhabba?
Hello friend, self-declared disciple of Venerable Buddhadasa Indapanno (mass market guru of wandering Western hippies, backpackers & kibbutzters). Your Master Venerable Buddhadasa appeared to say the following about the 'gandhabba':
His Holiness Buddhadasa wrote:
The Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta [MN 38] talks about the birth of a child.... In this Sutta the Buddha clearly describes how a person's life begins. The Buddha said that when a man and a woman come together in sexual intercourse, and if it is the time of the woman's period, and if the sperm, unites with the egg, then a human being will be born. If the man and the woman don't come together, there is no chance for birth. If the man and the woman have intercourse but it is not the time of the woman's period, there will be no birth. Or if the man and the woman come together and the woman is fertile but the sperm does not fertilize the egg, there will be no birth. There must be three conditions present for birth to take place: sexual intercourse, the fertility of the woman and the fertilization of the egg by the sperm.

https://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.c ... nation.pdf
The word "gandhabba" is found in many different contexts with many different meanings in the Pali suttas. Refer to this link. In relation to the conception of an embyro, I think it is only found in MN 38 & MN 93. Importantly, in MN 93, non-Buddhist Brahmins, who appeared to never had heard the Buddha-Dhamma before, appeared to know exactly what the "gandhabba" was. Obviously, the "gandhabba" in this context is unrelated to the Lord Buddha's revelations because it appears it was known to common village people, similar to say the common village people of Burma.
phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
And also please do not use SN 12.2 in conversation as I feel that this is not an authentic sutta.
The whole of Buddhism is based on SN 12.2, which expressed the 2nd Noble Truth, as found in AN 3.61. In my experience, its pointless studying Buddhism if SN 12.2 is regarded as not an authentic sutta. The entire Chapter 12 of the SN, including the Buddha's Awakening, is based on the analysis in SN 12.2. SN 12.2 defines what the 12 conditions of dependent origination are (and also allows us to find sub-definitions in other suttas).
phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
I feel that the Buddha clearly understood the existential plight of man...
Friend. The Lord Buddha arose to end the suffering of those with little dust in their eyes; those who felt or sensed the unsatisfactoriness of this mortal world; yet couldn't find the way to peace & closure.

Its is important to know the Buddha was not like Jesus the Christ. The Buddha did not expect all nations & all people to follow him. The Buddha was not a Neo-Con Globalist. Its seems, unlike Judaism, Islam & Mahayana, the Buddha had no "plan" for the world. In a most lofty teaching, the Buddha taught "disenchantment towards all of the world".
phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
I would like you to do the needful and help me understand the blessed one, Ñāṇavīra Thera.
Friend. Its seems the Venerable Ñāṇavīra taught "jati" & "marana" in Dependent Origination mean the psychological mental conceptions of "my birth" and "my death". For example, if you are a Neo-Con father with children, you would not suffer about the death of 500,000 born & dead babies in Iraq, similar to this Neo-Con War Hawk. But if your own children die, you will probably suffer. You will suffer because of the idea "my birth of my children", "my fatherhood" and "my death of my children". I think the ideas of Venerable Ñāṇavīra are not difficult to understand, even for Neo-Con War Hawks. Jesus Christ said: "Even though you are evil, you still want good things for your children" (Matthew 7:11).

About the "birth" & "death" in Dependent Origination, the Lord Buddha taught in MN 26, which is repeated in brief in SN 12.66 in terms of Dependent Origination:
MN 26 wrote:"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search.

And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
MN 87 describes a father who lost his mind due to the death of his son. Obviously, this father would not have lost his mind over the death of another person's son. In MN 87, the Lord Buddha said of this distraught father:
Lord Buddha wrote:Householder, your faculties are not those of one who is steady in his own mind. There is an aberration in your faculties.
The distraught father replied:
Father wrote:Lord, how could there not be an aberration in my faculties? My dear & beloved little son, my only child, has died. Because of his death, I have no desire to work or to eat. I keep going to the cemetery and crying out, 'Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?'
I think MN 87 is a sutta that supports Venerable Ñāṇavīra's intepretation of "my birth" & 'my death". I think it is not rocket science. Simply think of 500,000 dead babies in Iraq or Iran and then think about the death of your only 1 American baby. I think you will find you might suffer 500,000 times more over the death of your own 1 single American baby. Why? Because of the birth of the idea in the mind: "My American baby, that was born, is now dead". :|

I hope I help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera. :anjali:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by chownah » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:06 am

From your description of nanavira in the oopening post it seems that you are already a consumet expert on his skills and qualities.....one wonders how the uninformed could possibly add to the jugernaut of knowledge which you have accumulated on the subject already.

.....having wonderd about how this uninformed worm could possibly help you in this I suggest that google is your friend and using it might possibly add to your knowledge.....I say that it "might" because you seem to so informed on the subject that perhaps you already have consumed and digested all that google has to offer.

If google does not help please forgive this scum for having inconvenienced you with this post as this scum does not want to hinder you in any way on your golden path to whatever glorious destination where you will be received.....I say "whatever" glorious destination because this scum is so low that it is incapable of imagining even the smallest iota of its munifisence.
chownah
p.s. I think this is going to be fun!!!!
chownah

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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:33 am

It seems obvious the doctrine of 'next life rebirth' is extremely important in the Asian cultural religion called 'Buddhism'. If not for this doctrine, cultural Buddhism may not have been maintained for its many centuries. In Asia, so much 'merit-making' is made due to belief in 'next life rebirth'. However, for example, it is said the Mongols that brutally slaughtered millions of people, such as Genghis Khan & Kublai Khan, were 'Buddhists'. Obviously, these Mongol Buddhists did not believe in non-killing as a path to a good rebirth but believed some other doctrine of rebirth that resulted in their worldly power. For some individuals, the idea of one life is unbearable; particularly if 'self-view' in rigidly fixed in their mind. They might evil kill to remove any threat to their belief in next life rebirth. Such rigidity may lead to in an incapacity to tolerate alternative views about Buddhism different to theirs. Such kamma is lead by the mind.
Manopubbaṅgamā dhammā,
manoseṭṭhā manomayā;
Manasā ce paduṭṭhena,
bhāsati vā karoti vā;
Tato naṃ dukkhamanveti,
cakkaṃva vahato padaṃ.

Mind precedes all mental states.
Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought.
If with an impure mind
a person speaks or acts
suffering follows him
like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox

Dhammapada
:alien:
phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
Does Gandhabba preceed avijha or proceed according to the blessed master Thera?
Friend. I tried to research the meaning of "avijha" & "preceed" but was unsuccessful. Are these words doctrines of your Master, Venerable Buddhadasa?
phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
My current understanding is the following, as I know rebirth is not a real thing, but a superstition of the ancients
The advantageous thing about the notion of "superstition" is it does not affect wise people. For example, today I read on a 'one-doctrine' Buddhist forum the following hollow threat: "It will most definitely lead you to a... outcome in this life and the next". It reminded me of recently in Australia where people took offense to a famous sportsperson's quotes from the Bible about "gay people going to hell". How could a wise person be offended or threatened by such words if they believe the words are superstition? :shrug:
phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
My current understanding is the following, as I know rebirth is not a real thing, but a superstition of the ancients
Friend. I doubt you can "know rebirth is not a real thing". How can you "know"? :shrug:

However, as for Venerable Nanavira, whether or not his interpretations actually conform with what the Buddha taught, unlike your personal claims, it seems Venerable Nanavira did "know" what he taught. Personally, I have no doubts about this because I think I can also "know" or "experience" what Venerable Nanavira taught. I know there is suffering when the mind has the views of "my birth; my death".

However, as for knowing the non-reality of next-life-rebirth, that I cannot know. Please explain to us here how you "know" rebirth is not a real thing. Thanks :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pondera
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by Pondera » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:13 am

phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
Hello learned experts on all things Theravada!

I would like you to do the needful and help me understand the blessed one, Ñāṇavīra Thera. Clearly this man is among the elite as he deconstructed 2600 of Sangha misunderstandings. He removed psychic obstacles like a modern day Ganesh.

One thing that I already like about Ñāṇavīra Thera is the idea that I do not have to learn such confusing things as Abhidhamma and commentaries - this is far too much reading for me, I want to keep it short and sweet.

My question is - gandhabba, gandhabba, what is gandhabba?

The Suttas say when a man and woman come together in act of hanky panky, if mother is fertile and the gandhabba is present than the little baby slithers forth into the existential crisis of existence. Dasein, as the Buddha might say, before his Sangha changed the meaning.

My current understanding is the following, as I know rebirth is not a real thing, but a superstition of the ancients - the gandhabba represents the existential potential in man that is sitting over man's head as he is thrown into existence. The Ontico-Ontological Geworfenheit of this is the existential fear of death, that the blessed Ñāṇavīra overcame when he put a knife to his throat and meticulously slid from left to right thus ridding himself of the Geworfenheit sankhara.

I feel that the Buddha clearly understood the existential plight of man, but i must know what is this gandhabba according to the venerable teacher.

Does Gandhabba preceed avijha or proceed according to the blessed master Thera?

And also please do not use SN 12.2 in conversation as I feel that this is not an authentic sutta.


thank you.

“The word 'inauthentic' is used by Heidegger to describe the ostrich-like attitude of the man who seeks to escape from his inescapable self-responsibility by becoming an anonymous member of a crowd. This is the normal attitude of nearly everybody.
The Venerable one
:candle: :candle: :candle: :candle:
Dasein is falling and the Buddha, rapt in heart, reached up to recall one, two, three, four - four thousand - 40,000 eons of past births.

Don’t be so quick to discount rebirth! Dasein is falling. Reach up!!!
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

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phillyy
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by phillyy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:01 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:46 am
phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
My question is - gandhabba, gandhabba, what is gandhabba?
Hello friend, self-declared disciple of Venerable Buddhadasa Indapanno (mass market guru of wandering Western hippies, backpackers & kibbutzters). Your Master Venerable Buddhadasa appeared to say the following about the 'gandhabba':
Sir, it is great! it is wonderful!

You take a concept and make it clear as the everflowing Ganges Sir!

It is no longer Buddhadasa I follow, it is you sir!

The Doodoot Dhamma!

How ridiculous I was to follow this misguided man Buddhadasa,

I was, how do you say? A FOOL.

An absolute FOOLISH MAN. To imbibe such a patently false and absurd imbicile as Buddhadasa? For so many years!

But now....I know.... :bow:

The whole of Buddhism is based on SN 12.2, which expressed the 2nd Noble Truth, as found in AN 3.61. In my experience, its pointless studying Buddhism if SN 12.2 is regarded as not an authentic sutta. The entire Chapter 12 of the SN, including the Buddha's Awakening, is based on the analysis in SN 12.2. SN 12.2 defines what the 12 conditions of dependent origination are (and also allows us to find sub-definitions in other suttas).
Sir, what you say is a great refreshment sir!

The 99.999% of primitives who worship falsely this "Buddha" were lied to by the Buddha! The Buddha lied to get attention, did he not, sir? :meditate:
Last edited by phillyy on Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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phillyy
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by phillyy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:03 pm

Pondera wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:13 am
phillyy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm
Hello learned experts on all things Theravada!

I would like you to do the needful and help me understand the blessed one, Ñāṇavīra Thera. Clearly this man is among the elite as he deconstructed 2600 of Sangha misunderstandings. He removed psychic obstacles like a modern day Ganesh.

One thing that I already like about Ñāṇavīra Thera is the idea that I do not have to learn such confusing things as Abhidhamma and commentaries - this is far too much reading for me, I want to keep it short and sweet.

My question is - gandhabba, gandhabba, what is gandhabba?

The Suttas say when a man and woman come together in act of hanky panky, if mother is fertile and the gandhabba is present than the little baby slithers forth into the existential crisis of existence. Dasein, as the Buddha might say, before his Sangha changed the meaning.

My current understanding is the following, as I know rebirth is not a real thing, but a superstition of the ancients - the gandhabba represents the existential potential in man that is sitting over man's head as he is thrown into existence. The Ontico-Ontological Geworfenheit of this is the existential fear of death, that the blessed Ñāṇavīra overcame when he put a knife to his throat and meticulously slid from left to right thus ridding himself of the Geworfenheit sankhara.

I feel that the Buddha clearly understood the existential plight of man, but i must know what is this gandhabba according to the venerable teacher.

Does Gandhabba preceed avijha or proceed according to the blessed master Thera?

And also please do not use SN 12.2 in conversation as I feel that this is not an authentic sutta.


thank you.

“The word 'inauthentic' is used by Heidegger to describe the ostrich-like attitude of the man who seeks to escape from his inescapable self-responsibility by becoming an anonymous member of a crowd. This is the normal attitude of nearly everybody.
The Venerable one
:candle: :candle: :candle: :candle:
Dasein is falling and the Buddha, rapt in heart, reached up to recall one, two, three, four - four thousand - 40,000 eons of past births.

Don’t be so quick to discount rebirth! Dasein is falling. Reach up!!!
But sir, the venerable Nanavira teaches us that the sankhara is the existential crisis, sir, undercutting 2600 years of misrepresentation, sir. Note it.

The Buddha could travel between minds and planted the idea into Venerable Bhante Heidegger, who transmitted it to the Master Nanavira, sir, before he took the knife and slid it from one side of the cursed material throat to the other like a blessed Colombian knecktie, sir. :meditate:

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:38 pm

phillyy wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:03 pm

Your trolling is sub-par. It isn't even funny, which is the baseline requirement for trolling.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

Pulsar
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by Pulsar » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:50 pm

Pesudobabble, thanks for the rule on
the baseline requirement for trolling
:toast: the minimum is fun :woohoo:

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phillyy
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by phillyy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:21 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:38 pm
phillyy wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:03 pm

Your trolling is sub-par. It isn't even funny, which is the baseline requirement for trolling.
But sir, the Venerable Nanavira Thera teaches a Dhamma good in the middle good in the beginning good in the end, and was taught by Heidegger.

The logic is mindboggling and difficult to grasp! The sankhara is the existential crisis, is it not?

How else would you describe the profound Dhamma of the venerable Heidegger and his student the Venerable Nanavira? :meditate:

The logic of Master Doodoot is impeccable sir, and not available to simple sentient beings.

lostitude
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by lostitude » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:26 pm

I subscribed to that thread thinking I would learn something interesting. What a disappointment and a waste of time.

binocular
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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by binocular » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:31 pm

phillyy wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:21 pm
But sir, the Venerable Nanavira Thera teaches a Dhamma good in the middle good in the beginning good in the end, and was taught by Heidegger.

The logic is mindboggling and difficult to grasp! The sankhara is the existential crisis, is it not?

How else would you describe the profound Dhamma of the venerable Heidegger and his student the Venerable Nanavira? :meditate:

The logic of Master Doodoot is impeccable sir, and not available to simple sentient beings.
While your molars rot.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Help understanding Ñāṇavīra Thera

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:35 pm

Buddha save me from new-agers!

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