Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

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Jerafreyr
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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by Jerafreyr » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:19 pm

Yes you can hear, smell, taste, touch, see, and think of nothing. It does not mean the corresponding consciousness is activated at all times. Rather, it is as Dinsdale stated, where you place your perception on and then consciousness lands onto the respective object through the appropriate sense door.

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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by santa100 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:22 pm

sentinel wrote:Without the nerve there is no ear consciousness or hearing at all .
could there be an awareness underlying or consciousness in latent ?
This is where the Third Basket, the Abhidhamma, becomes useful because it provides a further more fine-grained dissection of the cognitive process. That "consciousness in latent" was given a name, called the bhavangaCitta/life-continuum. When an object impinges on a sense door (a sound wave approaches the ear drum, or a light photon strikes the eye receptors, a smell, etc..) the bhavanga temporarily retreats to the background and let the other sense consciousnesses arise and come to the foreground. Then once the cognitive process completes, the bhavanga supervenes again. See Ven. Bodhi's CMOA for further details.

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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:14 pm
sentinel wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:58 pm
could there be an awareness underlying or consciousness in latent ?


I can't make much sense of the idea of an underlying or latent awareness or consciousness.
It makes sense from an evolutionary point of view, where the brain is continually monitoring and processing sense data in order to identify threats and opportunities. I think a lot of this activity is automatic and unconscious. Even in a deep sleep a loud noise will wake you up.

The Buddhist model of consciousness is one approach, but there are many others. I tend not to take models of experience too literally, to me they are more like pointers or theories to be tested.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:03 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:40 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:14 pm

I can't make much sense of the idea of an underlying or latent awareness or consciousness.
It makes sense from an evolutionary point of view, where the brain is continually monitoring and processing sense data in order to identify threats and opportunities. I think a lot of this activity is automatic and unconscious. Even in a deep sleep a loud noise will wake you up.

The Buddhist model of consciousness is one approach, but there are many others.
I meant make sense from a conceptual point of view, rather than a rationale which might explain it. Guardian angels make sense from an evolutionary point of view, but it doesn't mean their possible existence should detain me for long. In the case of an underlying consciousness, entities are unnecessarily multiplied when we could just as easily see the contents of the senses arising for us when conditions are fulfilled. A unifying consciousness that we are not conscious of sounds like an entity invented to solve a philosophical puzzle.

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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:14 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:03 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:40 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:14 pm

I can't make much sense of the idea of an underlying or latent awareness or consciousness.
It makes sense from an evolutionary point of view, where the brain is continually monitoring and processing sense data in order to identify threats and opportunities. I think a lot of this activity is automatic and unconscious. Even in a deep sleep a loud noise will wake you up.

The Buddhist model of consciousness is one approach, but there are many others.
I meant make sense from a conceptual point of view, rather than a rationale which might explain it. Guardian angels make sense from an evolutionary point of view, but it doesn't mean their possible existence should detain me for long. In the case of an underlying consciousness, entities are unnecessarily multiplied when we could just as easily see the contents of the senses arising for us when conditions are fulfilled. A unifying consciousness that we are not conscious of sounds like an entity invented to solve a philosophical puzzle.
I've just explained how it makes sense conceptually, by explaining it in terms of evolution.

It's just the idea that awareness is continually present, even when we're asleep. How else would you explain being woken up by a loud noise?
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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:30 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:14 pm


I've just explained how it makes sense conceptually, by explaining it in terms of evolution.
"Make sense" can mean "give an account of how it came to be", or it can be used in a non-causal sense. I meant the latter.
It's just the idea that awareness is continually present, even when we're asleep. How else would you explain being woken up by a loud noise?
By saying that sense consciousness arises when the conditions for that to happen are in place. Brain, sound-waves, but no pre-existing consciousness. That seems closer to what the Buddha meant, and avoids the puzzle of something being conscious but us not being conscious of it being so.

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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:41 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:30 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:14 pm


I've just explained how it makes sense conceptually, by explaining it in terms of evolution.
"Make sense" can mean "give an account of how it came to be", or it can be used in a non-causal sense. I meant the latter.
It's just the idea that awareness is continually present, even when we're asleep. How else would you explain being woken up by a loud noise?
By saying that sense consciousness arises when the conditions for that to happen are in place. Brain, sound-waves, but no pre-existing consciousness. That seems closer to what the Buddha meant, and avoids the puzzle of something being conscious but us not being conscious of it being so.
But when you're driving a car or walking down a busy street, most of what you do is automatic. You're not conscious of all the sense data and decision making involved in these complex tasks. So there must be an underlying awareness involved - how else would you explain it?

And similarly, how DO you explain being woken up by a loud noise when you're asleep?

I don't think the Buddhist model of consciousness adequately explains these experiences. It imposes a digital model onto an analogue process.
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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:58 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:00 pm
I prefer the attention model because it's simpler, also because it fits better with my practical experience. And I don't find the model of consciousness in the suttas entirely satisfactory
Hi,

Say you heard a sudden clap of thunder, or some short duration sound. How would you analyse this?
Would you say that sound-consciousness arose and ceased or the sound arose and ceased but consciousness remained unchanged?
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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:10 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:41 pm


But when you're driving a car or walking down a busy street, most of what you do is automatic. You're not conscious of all the sense data and decision making involved in these complex tasks. So there must be an underlying awareness involved - how else would you explain it?

And similarly, how DO you explain being woken up by a loud noise when you're asleep?
By pointing out that these things give rise to consciousness, rather than claiming that the consciousness was somehow there all the time, like a mental homunculus which makes us conscious when it decides it needs to. There are no "sense data" unless you are actually aware of them; the existence of sense date presupposes a consciousness which cognises them. There's no mystery to things happening automatically: plants, crystals and physical processes do it all the time. There is no "loud noise" until we are conscious of it. A vibration of a certain frequency and amplitude impinges upon a physical object, and hearing arises. There is no hearing prior to that point.

The suggestion that there is an underlying consciousness seems to try to answer the question of how could consciousness arise due to conditions; it was really there all the time, and conditions make us notice it. But if that's the case, then when did this underlying consciousness begin?
I don't think the Buddhist model of consciousness adequately explains these experiences. It imposes a digital model onto an analogue process.
It does have the merit of avoiding self-contradiction in the form of a reified consciousness which we are not actually conscious of.
Bhikkhus, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, bhikkhus, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on the eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

“Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, bhikkhus, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent?
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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by pegembara » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:14 pm

Say you look into a mirror and see a reflection every single time. Can you assume that the reflection is there when you aren't looking?

I would argue that a reflection is dependent on you looking and a working mirror.

There is no latent or bhavanga reflection.
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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by form » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:59 pm

This topic needs to be examined with modern physiology and psychology to make any sense.

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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by chownah » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:55 am

With respect to sound:
There is always your ear being there on the side of your head....there is always sound of one sort or another (unless in a sensory deprivation tank).....but you are not aware of the vast bulk of that sound....it doesn't make any impression....this happens because the brain has selective attention....the brain attends to whatever is considered most important in the environment and ends up ignoring the rest.....this shows how contact only happens when consciusness is present in relation to the ear and sound.....and it shows how the ear and sound alone are not sufficient to create contact....and it shows how there can be the ear and sound but no consciousness present.
chownah

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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:30 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:10 pm

Bhikkhus, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, bhikkhus, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on the eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

“Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, bhikkhus, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent?
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.93/en/bodhi
Say you are looking at a tree , there is eyes vs tree , eye consciousness (seeing tree) occurs ,
but say your mind immersing in thinking of something , your attention not at the tree , then there is no eye consciousness ? The seeing or eye consciousness is not there because your awareness shifted .
So , if we accepted there is underlying tendencies of defilements , is it strange for the underlying awareness that hidden ?
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:37 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:55 am
With respect to sound:
There is always your ear being there on the side of your head....there is always sound of one sort or another (unless in a sensory deprivation tank).....but you are not aware of the vast bulk of that sound....it doesn't make any impression....this happens because the brain has selective attention....the brain attends to whatever is considered most important in the environment and ends up ignoring the rest.....this shows how contact only happens when consciusness is present in relation to the ear and sound.....and it shows how the ear and sound alone are not sufficient to create contact....and it shows how there can be the ear and sound but no consciousness present.
chownah
Would this mean there is an underlying awareness , why when the attention were directed at it , consciousness resurface ?

Another example , if one is absorbed in jhana , and the physical body being touch , no body consciousness . So , the mind is the culprit .
The mind base supposedly is the source of arising of consciousness .
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

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Re: Six sense base without sense object any sense consciousness ?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:06 am

Greetings,

Much of this subject matter depends on how key terms and concepts are understood. If people have different understandings of what terms and concepts mean, they will talk past each other, especially on subtle Dhamma matters such as this. I will explain the matter as I understand it... please take it or leave it, as you see fit - I have no interest in debate.
Bahiya Sutta wrote:You should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
I will examine the two colored parts separately.

Regarding the blue component, the formula "In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen" means just that. It means that "in reference to the seen" there will not be a sense-base, nor a corresponding sense-object. "The seen" will therefore not be bifurcated into "sense base" and "sense object", if we train correctly, in accordance with the Buddha's instruction. (Note: this is all entirely apart from the concept of the "eye faculty", which many Buddhists erroneously conflate with the "eye-base")

Regarding the red component, this equates to what is known in paticcasamuppada as "the cessation of the six-sense media". As per suttas on paticcasamuppada, "From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

It's all remarkably simple... follow the Buddha's instruction, and there will be "no you in connection with that" (i.e. no phassa), "no you there" (no bhava), "neither here nor yonder nor between the two" (no jati, no marana), and there will be "just this... the end of stress".

Any resistance to the simplicity of this truth will lead only to conceptual proliferation, and cause the flow of paticcasamuppada towards the origination of the "entire mass of stress & suffering".

For those more inclined to analysis via anicca and anatta (rather than via paticcasamuppada) the following from Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons may assist in understanding the necessity of not bifurcating "the seen".
How can there be an experience of cessation of the six sense-spheres? The cessation here meant is actually the cessation of the spheres of contact. A sphere of contact presupposes a duality. Contact is always between two things, between eye and forms, for instance. It is because of a contact between two things that one entertains a perception of permanence in those two things.
(Side-note: This poses an insoluble conundrum for those attached to non-sutta notions of having an "object" of meditation, and why many Buddhists spend decades chasing dead-end paths)

Lastly, an extract from the suttas...
A II 161, Mahākoṭṭhitasutta wrote:"Friend, he who says: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six spheres of sense-contact, there is something left' is conceptually proliferating what should not be proliferated conceptually. Friend, he who says: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six spheres of sense-contact, there is nothing left' is conceptually proliferating what should not be proliferated conceptually. Friend, he who says: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six spheres of sense-contact, there is and is not something left' is conceptually proliferating what should not be proliferated conceptually. Friend, he who says: 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six spheres of sense-contact, there neither is nor is not something left' is conceptually proliferating what should not be proliferated conceptually.

Friend, whatever is the range of the six spheres of sense-contact, that itself is the range of conceptual proliferation, and whatever is the range of conceptual proliferation, that itself is the range of the six spheres of sense-contact. By the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six spheres of sense-contact, there comes to be the cessation and appeasement of conceptual proliferation."
Let us not engage in papanca, nor in monkey chatter.

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