Idealism

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Ceisiwr
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Idealism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm

In my view there is no evidence for matter and so Idealism seems to be the more logical position. Even with Nama-Rupa we can only experience the 4 great elements as perception. Is this compatible with the Dhamma?

lostitude
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Re: Idealism

Post by lostitude » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:36 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm
Even with Nama-Rupa we can only experience the 4 great elements as perception.
Absolutely nothing in space can be perceived from Earth without instruments, yet that doesn't stop astronomers and physicists from being materialist and most of them see no reason for doubting that what they observe is material. May I know how you came to this conclusion?
Thanks.

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DooDoot
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Re: Idealism

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:11 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm
In my view there is no evidence for matter and so Idealism seems to be the more logical position.
Sure, food required to sustain life is just a "perception". The breaking of a leg is just a "perception" (therefore medical care is not required). The contracting of sexuality transmitted disease is just a "perception". Women giving birth to new children & women dying in child birth is just a "perception". The change from child birth to wrinkling, greying, rotting, diseased old age & death is just a "perception". :roll:
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm
IEven with Nama-Rupa we can only experience the 4 great elements as perception. Is this compatible with the Dhamma?
It seems your personal ideas above, similar to your personal ideas about the old monk Buddhadasa, are not compatible with the Dhamma.
"Monks, it's just as if there were a boil that had been building for many years with nine openings, nine un-lanced heads. Whatever would ooze out from it would be an uncleanliness oozing out, a stench oozing out, a disgust oozing out. Whatever would be discharged from it would be an uncleanliness discharging, a stench discharging, a disgust discharging.

"'A boil,' monks, is another word for this body composed of the four properties, born of mother & father, fed on rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing & massaging, breaking-up & disintegrating. It has nine openings, nine un-lanced heads. Whatever would ooze out from it would be an uncleanliness oozing out, a stench oozing out, a disgust oozing out. Whatever would be discharged from it would be an uncleanliness discharging, a stench discharging, a disgust discharging. For that reason, you should become disenchanted with this body."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“And why, bhikkhus, do you call it form? ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form. Deformed by what? Deformed by cold, deformed by heat, deformed by hunger, deformed by thirst, deformed by contact with flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and serpents. ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form.

“And why, bhikkhus, do you call it feeling? ‘It feels,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called feeling. And what does it feel? It feels pleasure, it feels pain, it feels neither-pain-nor-pleasure. ‘It feels,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called feeling.

“And why, bhikkhus, do you call it perception? ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception. And what does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception.

“And why, bhikkhus, do you call them volitional formations? ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations. And what is the conditioned that they construct? They construct conditioned form as form; they construct conditioned feeling as feeling; they construct conditioned perception as perception; they construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations; they construct conditioned consciousness as consciousness. ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.

And why, bhikkhus, do you call it consciousness? ‘It cognizes, ’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness. And what does it cognize? It cognizes sour, it cognizes bitter, it cognizes pungent, it cognizes sweet, it cognizes sharp, it cognizes mild, it cognizes salty, it cognizes bland. ‘It cognizes,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate. Name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.82/en/bodhi
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Idealism

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:14 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm
In my view there is no evidence for matter and so Idealism seems to be the more logical position. Even with Nama-Rupa we can only experience the 4 great elements as perception. Is this compatible with the Dhamma?
The way I understand that Nama-Rupa includes four great elements, space, and consciousness.
Which we can experience yourself.
Even Nibbana can be experienced.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Idealism

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:16 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:14 pm
The way I understand that Nama-Rupa includes four great elements, space, and consciousness.
Consciousness? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: Idealism

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:21 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:16 pm
SarathW wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:14 pm
The way I understand that Nama-Rupa includes four great elements, space, and consciousness.
Consciousness? :shrug:
Isn't Nama means cosciousness. ie : perception, felling etc?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Dinsdale
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Re: Idealism

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:22 pm

If you want an argument against idealism from the suttas, then look at MN140 which makes a clear distinction between internal and external elements.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi

If you want a practical argument against idealism, then drop a brick on your foot. :tongue:

But seriously, without the four great elements there is no basis for experience. Sense-objects are derived from form.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Idealism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:34 pm

lostitude wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm
Even with Nama-Rupa we can only experience the 4 great elements as perception.
Absolutely nothing in space can be perceived from Earth without instruments, yet that doesn't stop astronomers and physicists from being materialist and most of them see no reason for doubting that what they observe is material. May I know how you came to this conclusion?
Thanks.


Nothing is known bar mind, idea, perception etc. A mind independent thing cannot be known. Therefore, there is no evidence for this metaphysical thing called matter. It’s pure conjecture and speculation.

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DooDoot
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Re: Idealism

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:35 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:22 pm
But seriously, without the four great elements there is no basis for experience. Sense-objects are derived from form.
Indeed. Possibly for the avoidance of misconstruing consciousness & perception into a First Cause Brahma God, the Dhamma teaches:
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises....

"Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises...

"Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises...

"Dependent on tongue & flavors, tongue-consciousness arises...

"Dependent on body & tactile sensations, body-consciousness arises...

"Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises...
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Idealism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:36 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:22 pm
If you want an argument against idealism from the suttas, then look at MN140 which makes a clear distinction between internal and external elements.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi

If you want a practical argument against idealism, then drop a brick on your foot. :tongue:

But seriously, without the four great elements there is no basis for experience. Sense-objects are derived from form.


When I drop a brick on my foot all I experience is mental. There is no evidence of an independent thing outside of hardness, pain etc.

binocular
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Re: Idealism

Post by binocular » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:38 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm
In my view there is no evidence for matter and so Idealism seems to be the more logical position. Even with Nama-Rupa we can only experience the 4 great elements as perception.

Is this compatible with the Dhamma?
It's ironic, given some of your other statements, e.g.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:31 pm
“Evidence, (no matter how much evidence, whether theoretical or experiencial) is not enough to posit that the truth has been reached without any posible future refutation.”

The scientific theory that the Earth is “spherical” has now been confirmed as true. Truth has been established without any possible future refutation.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Idealism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:39 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm
In my view there is no evidence for matter and so Idealism seems to be the more logical position.
Sure, food required to sustain life is just a "perception". The breaking of a leg is just a "perception" (therefore medical care is not required). The contracting of sexuality transmitted disease is just a "perception". Women giving birth to new children & women dying in child birth is just a "perception". The change from child birth to wrinkling, greying, rotting, diseased old age & death is just a "perception". :roll:
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm
IEven with Nama-Rupa we can only experience the 4 great elements as perception. Is this compatible with the Dhamma?
It seems your personal ideas above, similar to your personal ideas about the old monk Buddhadasa, are not compatible with the Dhamma.
"Monks, it's just as if there were a boil that had been building for many years with nine openings, nine un-lanced heads. Whatever would ooze out from it would be an uncleanliness oozing out, a stench oozing out, a disgust oozing out. Whatever would be discharged from it would be an uncleanliness discharging, a stench discharging, a disgust discharging.

"'A boil,' monks, is another word for this body composed of the four properties, born of mother & father, fed on rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing & massaging, breaking-up & disintegrating. It has nine openings, nine un-lanced heads. Whatever would ooze out from it would be an uncleanliness oozing out, a stench oozing out, a disgust oozing out. Whatever would be discharged from it would be an uncleanliness discharging, a stench discharging, a disgust discharging. For that reason, you should become disenchanted with this body."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“And why, bhikkhus, do you call it form? ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form. Deformed by what? Deformed by cold, deformed by heat, deformed by hunger, deformed by thirst, deformed by contact with flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and serpents. ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form.

“And why, bhikkhus, do you call it feeling? ‘It feels,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called feeling. And what does it feel? It feels pleasure, it feels pain, it feels neither-pain-nor-pleasure. ‘It feels,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called feeling.

“And why, bhikkhus, do you call it perception? ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception. And what does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception.

“And why, bhikkhus, do you call them volitional formations? ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations. And what is the conditioned that they construct? They construct conditioned form as form; they construct conditioned feeling as feeling; they construct conditioned perception as perception; they construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations; they construct conditioned consciousness as consciousness. ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.

And why, bhikkhus, do you call it consciousness? ‘It cognizes, ’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness. And what does it cognize? It cognizes sour, it cognizes bitter, it cognizes pungent, it cognizes sweet, it cognizes sharp, it cognizes mild, it cognizes salty, it cognizes bland. ‘It cognizes,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate. Name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.82/en/bodhi

When eating an apple do you know anything outside of hardness, softness, sweetness, red etc all of which are mental phenomenal experiences. None of that indicates that matter exists. All we experience is mental in nature. We have no way of knowing if there is anything outside which exists independently of mind.

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DooDoot
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Re: Idealism

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:40 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:34 pm
Nothing is known bar mind, idea, perception etc. A mind independent thing cannot be known. Therefore, there is no evidence for this metaphysical thing called matter. It’s pure conjecture and speculation.
MN 43 describes the "cessation of perception & feeling", when all mentality ceases to exist but the body remains alive. This appears to show how your general idea on this thread (the topic discussed many times before :zzz: ) appears not compatible with Dhamma.
What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications [breathing] have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his [five physical sense organ] faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his [five physical sense organ] faculties are exceptionally clear [pure]. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Idealism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:40 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:38 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:31 pm
In my view there is no evidence for matter and so Idealism seems to be the more logical position. Even with Nama-Rupa we can only experience the 4 great elements as perception.

Is this compatible with the Dhamma?
It's ironic, given some of your other statements, e.g.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:31 pm
“Evidence, (no matter how much evidence, whether theoretical or experiencial) is not enough to posit that the truth has been reached without any posible future refutation.”

The scientific theory that the Earth is “spherical” has now been confirmed as true. Truth has been established without any possible future refutation.

How is that ironic? Idealism isn’t incompatible with a spherical Earth or science.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Idealism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:40 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:34 pm
Nothing is known bar mind, idea, perception etc. A mind independent thing cannot be known. Therefore, there is no evidence for this metaphysical thing called matter. It’s pure conjecture and speculation.
MN 43 describes the "cessation of perception & feeling", when all mentality ceases to exist but the body remains alive. This appears to show how your general idea on this thread (the topic discussed many times before :zzz: ) appears not compatible with Dhamma.
What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications [breathing] have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his [five physical sense organ] faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his [five physical sense organ] faculties are exceptionally clear [pure]. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

And how does that contradict idealism?

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