SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:29 am

Greetings,
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:23 am
What is being prepared is the question in the dependent origination ?
Every thing.
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:23 am
And bhava has not enter the picture yet as sankhara at second link in dependent origination .
I repeat - they're all preparations.

From Nanavira's Shorter Note: Sankhara
Nanavira Thera wrote:the word sankhāra, in all contexts, means 'something that something else depends on', that is to say a determination (determinant).
From Nanavira's A Note on Paṭiccasamuppāda
Since to be sankhata and to be paticcasamuppanna are one and the same thing, we see that each item in the series of §17 is preceded by a sankhāra upon which it depends, and that therefore the total collection of items in the series depends upon the total collection of their respective sankhārā. In this sense we might say that the total collection of items is sankhārapaccayā. But since this statement means only that each and every particular item of the series depends upon a particular sankhāra, it does not say anything fresh. Sankhārapaccayā, however, can be understood in a different way: instead of 'dependent upon a collection of particular sankhārā', we can take it as meaning 'dependent upon the fact that there are such things as sankhārā'. In the first sense sankhārapaccayā is the equivalent of paticcasamuppanna ('dependently arisen'), and applies to a given series as a collection of particular items; in the second sense sankhārapaccayā is the equivalent of paticcasamuppāda ('dependent arising'), and applies to a given series as the exemplification of a structural principle. In the second sense it is true quite generally of all formulations of paticcasamuppāda, and not merely of this formulation (since any other formulation will consist of some other set of particular items). Paticcasamuppāda is, in fact, a structural principle (formally stated in the first Sutta passage at the head of this Note), and not one or another specific chain of sankhārā. It is thus an over-simplification to regard any one given formulation in particular terms as paticcasamuppāda. Every such formulation exemplifies the principle: none states it. Any paticcasamuppāda series, purely in virtue of its being an exemplification of paticcasamuppāda, depends upon the fact that there are such things as sankhārā; and a fortiori the series of §17 depends upon the fact of the existence of sankhārā: if there were no such things as sankhārā there would be no such thing as paticcasamuppāda at all, and therefore no such thing as this individual formulation of it.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by sunnat » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:09 am

Though for the world outside they appear as causes, for the arahant they are not causes, because they do not cause a bhava, or existence, for him. They are made ineffective. Similarly, the caused or the made-up, when it is observed with correct understanding, equanimously, continuously, ardently, with a calm focused mind, as something prepared or made-up, becomes an un-prepared or an un-made. Anicca. This principle of un-doing applies to the beginning, middle, and end of the path.

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:29 am

I repeat - they're all preparations.

From Nanavira's Shorter Note: Sankhara
Nanavira Thera wrote:the word sankhāra, in all contexts, means 'something that something else depends on', that is to say a determination (determinant).
if there were no such things as sankhārā there would be no such thing as paticcasamuppāda at all, and therefore no such thing as this individual formulation of it.
Metta,
Paul. :)
[/quote]

How do you relate preparing "everything" to vinnana ?
:coffee:

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:35 am

Greetings Sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:32 am
How do you relate preparing "everything" to vinnana ?
That vinnana is prepared...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:35 am
Greetings Sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:32 am
How do you relate preparing "everything" to vinnana ?
That vinnana is prepared...

Metta,
Paul. :)
Unlikely , If the second link onwards every link about preparation , that's sounds implausible . Buddha would not waste time explaining on each link then .
:coffee:

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by chownah » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:07 am

With respect to prepare: Is it possible that the process of preparation is always going on even for an arahant and it is not that preparation ceases in the absence of ignorance but rather that the preparation is seen as just being a preparation in the absence of ignorance and thus it deliterious effects so not arise?

With respect to "fabrication": Some here might not know that in the english language the word "fabrication" can be used to denote the process as well as the product produced. For instance: I think that in a shop which fabricates baskets (for instance) we can easily refer to the baskets as being the things fabricated in the shop and hence we can call them fabrications....but we can just as easily describe what they do in the shop as being the fabrication of baskets.....leading us to the idea that the business of the shop is to "the fabrication of fabrications"......sort of makes the idea of "fabricate the fabricated" less mysterious.....actually for me the idea of "fabricate the fabricated" seems pretty straight forward with the idea that the thing which fabricates the fabricated is a fabrication itself being the things which gives pause for thought.
chownah

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:30 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:58 pm
SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

There are two interesting points I wish to see your opinion on this sutta.
Point 1 :

Form is a conditioned phenomenon; choices are what make it into form. Feeling is a conditioned phenomenon; choices are what make it into feeling. Perception is a conditioned phenomenon; choices are what make it into perception. Choices are conditioned phenomena; choices are what make them into choices. Consciousness is a conditioned phenomenon; choices are what make it into consciousness.
Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato

Point2:
This is called a mendicant who neither gets rid of things nor accumulates them, but remains after getting rid of them. They neither give things up nor grasp them, but remain after giving them up. They neither discard things nor amass them, but remain after discarding them. They neither dissipate things nor get clouded by them, but remain after dissipating them.
Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu nevācināti na apacināti, apacinitvā ṭhito; neva pajahati na upādiyati, pajahitvā ṭhito; neva visineti na ussineti, visinetvā ṭhito; neva vidhūpeti na sandhūpeti vidhūpetvā ṭhito
The first passage is about how the aggregates come into being, the second passage is about how the aggregates are let go of.

Using the translation above, you could say that the aggregates represent our experience, and the choices we make shape or condition that experience.

As a trivial example, if I choose to go to the beach today, then that choice is going to determine today's experience, and therefore how today's aggregates form.

"Choices" (intentional activity?) is an interesting translation for sankharas.
In terms of the aggregates, I think of the conjoined vinnana/vedana/sanna triplet as representing "initial experiences" (derived from rupa), with sankharas representing how we respond to those initial experiences. So "choices" for sankharas seems to make sense here. Though of course choices are also conditioned - in this case by previous choices.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:41 am

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 am
So , it is clear that something is made out of the five aggregates that is called sankhara . However , to determine sankhara in dependent origination is referring to what exactly that is undecided .
I read it more like sankharas "making" the aggregates, shaping and determining them.

Also this sutta appears to be about the aggregates, rather than about dependent origination. Note that this sutta appears in SN22, The Book of the Aggregates (Khandhavagga), rather than in SN12, The Book of Causation (Nidanavagga). Context is important!
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:53 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:30 am
The first passage is about how the aggregates come into being...
The above appears to be saying sankhara "creates" the other aggregates:
“The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate. Name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.82/en/bodhi
:alien:
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:30 am
As a trivial example, if I choose to go to the beach today...
Is the beach merely "form" to you? Or is the beach more than that? :shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:58 am

Point 1: This is how i currently see it.
I consider myself as a embodied creature, I consider my self as a feeling creature, I consider my self as perceiving creature, I consider my self as a creature that can intend, act, think.... . I consider my self as a conscious creature. This is done by sankhara.

Point 2: This describes an asekha or arahant.

Earlier passage,
This is called a noble disciple who gets rid of things and doesn’t accumulate them;
who gives things up and doesn’t grasp at them;
who discards things and doesn’t amass them;
who dissipates things and doesn’t get clouded by them.
Describes a sekha or one still in training.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:03 am

Greetings,
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:43 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:35 am
Greetings Sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:32 am
How do you relate preparing "everything" to vinnana ?
That vinnana is prepared...

Metta,
Paul. :)
Unlikely , If the second link onwards every link about preparation , that's sounds implausible . Buddha would not waste time explaining on each link then .
Well since the sutta Sarath quoted says "consciousness is a conditioned phenomenon", you'll just have to abide that implausibility.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:03 am

Well since the sutta Sarath quoted says "consciousness is a conditioned phenomenon", you'll just have to abide that implausibility.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Ha , the eyes ears consciousness could be there , the thought probably never been there .
A baby look at an apple , is there fabrication ?
:coffee:

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by budo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:52 pm

@retrofuturist and @sentinel,

It may be helpful to read SN 12.38 and AN 4.171, two very important suttas.
If you don’t intend or plan, but still have underlying tendencies, this becomes a support for the continuation of consciousness.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.38/en/sujato

Intention + Tendencies (obsessons) -> 3 sanhkaras
“Mendicants, as long as there’s a body, the intention that gives rise to bodily action causes pleasure and pain to arise in oneself.

As long as there’s a voice, the intention that gives rise to verbal action causes pleasure and pain to arise in oneself.

As long as there’s a mind, the intention that gives rise to mental action causes pleasure and pain to arise in oneself. But these only apply when conditioned by ignorance.

By oneself one makes the choice that gives rise to bodily, verbal, and mental action, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.
Ignorance is included in all these things. But when ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, there is no body and no voice and no mind, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself. There is no field, no ground, no scope, and no basis, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.

Mendicants, there are four kinds of reincarnation. What four? There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not that of others. There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective, not one’s own. There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective. These are the four kinds of reincarnation.”


- AN 4.171

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:15 am

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:38 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:03 am

Well since the sutta Sarath quoted says "consciousness is a conditioned phenomenon", you'll just have to abide that implausibility.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Ha , the eyes ears consciousness could be there , the thought probably never been there .
A baby look at an apple , is there fabrication ?
Yes, assuming there is some kind of response to seeing the apple.
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by pegembara » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:07 am

'Preperations' is indeed a word significant to all, and the function of samskaras is exactly making one ready to reap the fruits of one's actions, of whatever kind they may be. Without samskaras life in this world would be unthinkable, because pre-perations give meaning to life, and one's
interest in life mostly consists of an uninterrupted series of preperations, which lead from one kind of activity into another. Thus the meaning one
gives to life is defined by his samskaras.

It seems to have been a special intention of Buddha to widen the sphere of usage of the term 'preperations', in order to lead people to disgust
with themselves and thus with the world, all in accordance with the key principle of Sramana culture; bondage, liberation and path are to be searched for only within one's six feet long body, and nowhere else. [S.N.4.98]

In a famous passage, recurring on several places in Pali, [D.N.3,212,S.N.2,82, 3.87 etc.] samskaras are explained as that, which prepares
the prepared..., preparing form into the state of form, feeling into the state of feeling etc. ( with all other aggregates) (註6) Samskaras, represented as potter kneading pots in Tibetan tanka representations, prepare the world in two ways, by causes and conditions and by one's will or effort, both being but two aspects of the same process of preparing.

To summerize, the word samskara is used in Buddhism to refer to all the world, individualized as five aggregates of existence. It is used in
active sense to refer to everything creating, preparing one's existence, and in passive sense to everything prepared, created in it, because
samskaras tempered by previous samskaras constitute the causal relations in the world on all levels of existence.

In the Theravada tradition samskara as aggregate is usually taken to refer to all mental factors [51 cetasikas] except feeling and conceptualization, which form separate aggregates. However this differentiation is only a matter of emphasis, because the late two are also referred to as mind preparations [cittasankharas] in the scriptures. [M. N.1 , 301]

http://www.chibs.edu.tw/ch_html/bcc/an19_115.htm
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