Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by binocular » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:27 pm

Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?


Please discuss.

Thank you.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

budo
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by budo » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:28 pm

The suttas

Dinsdale
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:34 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:27 pm
Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?


Please discuss.

Thank you.
It all depends on how those two things are defined. One answer might be the difference between a religion, and the teachings (or teacher?) that the religion is based on.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Phena
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by Phena » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:38 pm

why be distracted by Buddhism when there is the Dhamma

santa100
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by santa100 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:05 pm

binocular wrote:Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?
No line that I see. The Buddha didn't invent a whole new system by Himself. He re-discovered the same system His predecessors used and taught.
SN 12.65 wrote:It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous.

"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path."

Srilankaputra
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:11 pm

Sotapanna
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:42 pm

I think the terms are often used interchangeably, but Dhamma can refer to the truth or principle that the Buddha discovered, and "Buddhism" is the later term given by Europeans to what the Buddha and his followers taught, and the cultural accretions which that has picked up.

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Polar Bear
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by Polar Bear » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:26 pm

Is might be better to speak of lines and not a line. Buddhism as it is now in its vast scope from Theravada to Pure Land and Vajrayana contains many ideas that are not found in the early texts. To go through all of these differences would take a series of tomes which I don’t plan to write. It is clear though that, for example, the Pali word dhamma was never associated with the idea that chanting the name Amida leads to liberation from samsara.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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SDC
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by SDC » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:11 pm
Sotapanna
Perhaps not precisely, but I think you’re on the right track.

I think the answer is “understanding”. That is really the line. The point where something goes from being possessed as a fact, to being known as knowledge. The difference between being able to mechanically recollect information and actually knowing how or where that information applies: taking a description, holding it up against experience and discerning the correlation until it is fully understood.

“Buddhism” is the accumulation of information and tradition. The “Dhamma” is discerned when the information and/or tradition is applied correctly: knowledge. The practice of accumulating the former [accumulation] does not imply the discovery of the latter, unfortunately. That the Dhamma is somehow hidden within the depths of Buddhism is an easy assumption to make, but a dangerous one to hold. That line between information and knowledge is not direct. It isn’t along the same line. Information needs to mimicked on the level of mind in order to discern whether or not it applies. It is given in the form of something outside, “another’s utterance”. Finding what that utterance means, is more than just memorizing the utterance. And that is where proper attention comes in. Finding what that utterance is referring to in one’s experience. That is the difference between information and knowledge, between “Buddhism” and “Dhamma”.

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Bundokji
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:37 pm

Consciousness
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

2600htz
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by 2600htz » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:45 pm

Hello

It depends on how you use words, but dhamma is the real teaching of the Buddha, while the many kinds of Buddhism are attempts to be as close as possible to that dhamma.

Regards.

Dinsdale
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:48 pm

2600htz wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:45 pm
Hello

It depends on how you use words, but dhamma is the real teaching of the Buddha, while the many kinds of Buddhism are attempts to be as close as possible to that dhamma.

Regards.
When you say "real teaching", do you mean what is written in the suttas?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SarathW
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:28 pm

There is no line but due to our ignorance, we have made a line ourselves.
In generally we all live and talk Dhamma.
But we have to investigate What Buddha Dhamma is.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DNS
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by DNS » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:49 pm

Buddhism generally refers to the whole religion, everything from Vajrayana to Nichiren to Theravada. Dhamma is the Pali term for Dharma so generally refers to the teachings from the Pali Canon and Theravada, but some use it to refer to EBT and a Suttanta approach.

Some might refer to themselves as followers of the Dhamma to mean the Buddha's teachings as found in the EBT and not necessarily Theravada. Ven. Dhammika refers to following Dhamma in this way and not Theravada, but his teachings always reference the Pali Canon and he almost never quotes Mahayana sutras.

2600htz
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Re: Where is the line between Buddhism and Dhamma?

Post by 2600htz » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:37 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:48 pm
2600htz wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:45 pm
Hello

It depends on how you use words, but dhamma is the real teaching of the Buddha, while the many kinds of Buddhism are attempts to be as close as possible to that dhamma.

Regards.
When you say "real teaching", do you mean what is written in the suttas?
Hello:

Emm by real teaching or dhamma i mean the words of the Buddha coming out of his mouth. The suttas being probably 95% 99% true representations of that dhamma, counting translation mistakes and later additions.

Regards.

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