SN22.53 Involvement.

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SarathW
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SN22.53 Involvement.

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:03 pm

According to this Sutta, consciousness cannot exist without the other four aggregates of Rupa, Vedana, Sanna, and Sankhara.
The question is whether it is possible for consciousness to sustained with only one of the other aggregates.
For instance can consciousness sustained only with Rupa without vedana, Sanna and Sankhara.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.53/en/sujato

"As long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with form, supported by form, founded on form. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature."
"Apart from form, feeling, perception, and choices, I will describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and reappearing, its growth, increase, and maturity.’ That is not possible."
"Being free, it’s stable. Being stable, it’s content. Being content, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished."
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

budo
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Re: SN22.53 Involvement.

Post by budo » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:52 pm

Are there feelings in the formless realms? what about contact?

SarathW
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Re: SN22.53 Involvement.

Post by SarathW » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:42 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:52 pm
Are there feelings in the formless realms? what about contact?
The way I understand there are subtle contact and feeling in formless realms.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Jerafreyr
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Re: SN22.53 Involvement.

Post by Jerafreyr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:31 am

Consciousness is like this juggler :juggling:

Consciousness does not cognize a mixture of khandhas; it processes them in rapid succession one at a time. In samadhi you still this process by calming the mind where there is only one object of cognition. Form (in the solid sense for example) can be an object of cognition which is where the earth kasina meditation originates. So yes, you can sustain consciousness of mere rupa as long as the conditions for such are present.

budo
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Re: SN22.53 Involvement.

Post by budo » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:04 pm

It seems like there can be clinging without form, just by intention alone.

This is said after the Buddha explains how a monk attains all the formless jhanas.

"There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way — (thinking) 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound."

"Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?"

"The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."

"Then, indeed, being sustained, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance."

"Being sustained, Ananda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this — the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance. There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."
- MN 106

SarathW
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Re: SN22.53 Involvement.

Post by SarathW » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:22 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: SN22.53 Involvement.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:46 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:03 pm
According to this Sutta, consciousness cannot exist without the other four aggregates of Rupa, Vedana, Sanna, and Sankhara. ...
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.53/en/sujato
I don't understand the basis for the question:
Consciousness, bhikkhus, while standing, might stand engaged with form; based upon form, established upon form, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion. Or consciousness, while standing, might stand engaged with feeling … engaged with perception … engaged with volitional formations;
Even if the "or" was omitted, it would seem odd to read it as requiring all four.

:heart:
Mike

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DooDoot
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Re: SN22.53 Involvement.

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:49 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:46 pm
it would seem odd to read it as requiring all four.
Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality.

MN 9


Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes.

MN 43


It's good, monks, that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in this way, for in many ways I have said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'

Consciousness, monks, is classified simply by the requisite condition in dependence on which it arises. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the eye & forms is classified simply as eye-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the ear & sounds is classified simply as ear-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the nose & aromas is classified simply as nose-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the tongue & flavors is classified simply as tongue-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the body & tactile sensations is classified simply as body-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the intellect & ideas is classified simply as intellect-consciousness.

MN 38


Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises.
Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises...
Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises...
Dependent on tongue & flavors, tongue-consciousness arises...
Dependent on body & tactile sensations, body-consciousness arises...
Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises...

MN 18
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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mikenz66
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Re: SN22.53 Involvement.

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:17 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:49 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:46 pm
it would seem odd to read it as requiring all four.
...
And your conclusion is what?

:heart:
Mike

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