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when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am
by Zachary
Hi all,

When do you think is the end of suffering, With Non-returnership, Aharantship or at Parinibbana?

I personally think it is when you realise Non-returnership. Because the roots of sensual desire and aversion are cut off. I can't think of any stress that would arise in a Nonreturners mind. There is only left some delusion with Nonreturnership.

Greetings Zachary

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:51 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Zachary,
Zachary wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am
There is only left some delusion with Nonreturnership.
Some delusion, leads to some dukkha.

To answer your question, the cessation of dukkha will occur with the complete cessation of delusion - arahantship.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:16 am
by SarathW
There are three kinds of suffering.
- Dukkha Dukkha ie. The suffering we due to painful feelings
- Viparinama Dukka - The suffering due to changes like old age, sickness, separation from loved ones, loss of wealth etc
- Sankhara Dukkha - Even if you are born to Brahma worlds and Deva worlds you still experience this suffering.

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:17 am
by Bundokji
When suffering is seen for what it is, i guess.

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:58 am
by Dinsdale
Zachary wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am
Hi all,

When do you think is the end of suffering, With Non-returnership, Aharantship or at Parinibbana?

I personally think it is when you realise Non-returnership. Because the roots of sensual desire and aversion are cut off. I can't think of any stress that would arise in a Nonreturners mind. There is only left some delusion with Nonreturnership.

Greetings Zachary
Clearly Nibbana corresponds to the cessation of the taints, but from my reading of the suttas it's less clear whether Nibbana also corresponds to the complete cessation of dukkha. I have seen different interpretations.

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:00 am
by Dinsdale
Bundokji wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:17 am
When suffering is seen for what it is, i guess.
Possibly, though that seems more like a realisation of the First Truth.
Does that lead inevitably to a realisation of the Third Truth?

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:03 pm
by Bundokji
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:00 am
Possibly, though that seems more like a realisation of the First Truth.
Does that lead inevitably to a realisation of the Third Truth?
I think it depends. If the four noble truths are a useful presentation with the purpose of ending suffering, then there is no meaningful difference between the four and realizing what we perceive as one would necessitate realizing the others. However, if the four noble truths are ontologically separable, then there is a meaningful difference between the four and the realization of one would not necessitate the realization of others.

What is interesting though is that similar distinctions/dualities are present from the outset (the first noble truth). There is an independent self that experiences sickness, old age and death. Then this duality is extended to the second noble truth by separating suffering from its cause. Then the duality becomes the distinction between two pairs (the first two with the second two - The problem and the solution), then the last distinction between the third and fourth (the path and the goal).

According to the above, would seeing the first noble truth necessitate seeing all of them?

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:45 pm
by budo
Zachary wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am
Hi all,

When do you think is the end of suffering, With Non-returnership, Aharantship or at Parinibbana?

I personally think it is when you realise Non-returnership. Because the roots of sensual desire and aversion are cut off. I can't think of any stress that would arise in a Nonreturners mind. There is only left some delusion with Nonreturnership.

Greetings Zachary
The end of absolute suffering? Parinibbana.

The end of eternal suffering? Stream entry

Anything in between is just a matter of time and energy.

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:08 pm
by Dinsdale
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:45 pm
The end of absolute suffering? Parinibbana.
Could you elaborate on this? Do you mean there is "residual" dukkha for the Arahant, and if so, what does it consist of, practically speaking?

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:05 pm
by santa100
Zachary wrote:When do you think is the end of suffering, With Non-returnership, Aharantship or at Parinibbana?
Arahantship. There's still bodily pain, but there's no "I", "my", or "myself" for the pain to cling to:
MN 140 wrote:“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’ If he feels a painful feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’ If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’ Bhikkhu, just as an oil-lamp burns in dependence on oil and a wick, and when the oil and wick are used up, if it does not get any more fuel, it is extinguished from lack of fuel; so too when he feels a feeling terminating with the body…a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’

“Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this wisdom possesses the supreme foundation of wisdom. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble wisdom, namely, the knowledge of the destruction of all suffering.

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:08 pm
by Virgo
Zachary wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 am
Hi all,

When do you think is the end of suffering, With Non-returnership, Aharantship or at Parinibbana?

I personally think it is when you realise Non-returnership. Because the roots of sensual desire and aversion are cut off. I can't think of any stress that would arise in a Nonreturners mind. There is only left some delusion with Nonreturnership.

Greetings Zachary
Ratha-vinita Sutta: Relay Chariots

:anjali: Kevin

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:34 pm
by Ceisiwr
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:08 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:45 pm
The end of absolute suffering? Parinibbana.
Could you elaborate on this? Do you mean there is "residual" dukkha for the Arahant, and if so, what does it consist of, practically speaking?

Not to but in but I’ve always understood that the residual dukkha for an Arahant is that of the body and painful feelings etc that arise therein.

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:57 pm
by budo
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:08 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:45 pm
The end of absolute suffering? Parinibbana.
Could you elaborate on this? Do you mean there is "residual" dukkha for the Arahant, and if so, what does it consist of, practically speaking?
I mean that unpleasant feelings can still arise when one is alive, regardless of being an Arahant or not. As can be seen when the Buddha dislikes crowded monasteries and leaves them to seek seclusion and pleasant abiding. Had Brahma not begged him to teach the Dhamma, he would probably just spend the rest of his life in seclusion as a pacceka Buddha (the average Buddha is a pacceka Buddha).
"As I reflected thus, my mind inclined to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma.

"Then Brahma Sahampati, having known with his own awareness the line of thinking in my awareness, thought: 'The world is lost! The world is destroyed! The mind of the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Rightly Self-awakened One inclines to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma!
Feelings can no longer arise after Parnibbana, since there is no more contact.

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:32 pm
by Dinsdale
The last paragraph of AN3.38 describes the cessation of dukkha at Arahantship.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.38/en/bodhi

Re: when is the end of suffering?

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:22 pm
by dhammafriend1
If all conditioned things and events are impermanent and therefore unsatisfying - then one naturally gives up attachment - one no longer seeks for a future state of satisfaction - thus the third noble truth (giving up Desire / attachment) - Liberation is Liberation from Desire or Attachment....Thus...Sabbe Sankhara anicca - Sabbe Sankhara dukkha - Sabbe Sankhara Anatta...