four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:38 am

https://suttacentral.net/an4.171/en/sujato
But when ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, there is no body and no voice and no mind, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.
avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā so kāyo na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, sā vācā na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ, so mano na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ,
ignorance gone then no body.
“Mendicants, as long as there’s a body, the intention that gives rise to bodily action causes pleasure and pain to arise in oneself.
“Kāye vā, bhikkhave, sati kāyasañcetanāhetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.
if to consider mindfulness of breath,

when breathing in and out and knowing you are breathing heavily or lightly.

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
They practice breathing in experiencing the whole body. They practice breathing out experiencing the whole body. ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;
They practice breathing in stilling the body’s motion. They practice breathing out stilling the body’s motion. ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati. (1)
so guessing that the dīgha is dukkha and rassa is sukha.

then the "no body" is when the kayasankharas are stilled. Which could be neither pleasure nor suffering, what doesn't mean neutral but in same level as digha and rassa but is instead factor of liberation what means "fading of ignorance".

and the breathing in and out and knowing about im breathing heavy or lightly is happen "within the individual" so the being within being are the feelings.

ajjhattaṃ, http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/ajjhattaṃ
ajjhattaṃConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
ajjhattaṃ:[adv.] inwardly.

ajjhattaṃPali-Dictionary Vipassana Research Institute
ajjhattaṃ:Relating to the individual,within the individual,internally,subjectively
uppajjati here mean the feelings: dukkha and sukkha. And maybe the "stilling of kayasankhara" is the One we need listen.
Last edited by auto on Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:37 am
auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:20 pm
https://suttacentral.net/mn57/en/sujato
And what are dark deeds with dark results?

It’s when someone makes hurtful choices by way of body, speech, and mind.

Having made these choices, they’re reborn in a hurtful world,

So sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.

where hurtful contacts touch them.

Touched by hurtful contacts, they experience hurtful feelings that are exclusively painful—like the beings in hell.

This is how a being is born from a being.

Iti kho, puṇṇa, bhūtā bhūtassa upapatti hoti;

For your deeds determine your rebirth,

yaṃ karoti tena upapajjati,
Hi Auto

The Pali word "upapajjati" does not appear to literally means "rebirth". It appears to literally mean "to proceed from" or "to follow from".

For example, the Pali word "upapajjati" is found in MN 148, as follows:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not tenable.

‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,

Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
It appears the quote above from MN 148 should be literally translated as follows:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that does not proceed/follow.

‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,

Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
Therefore, MN 57 is possibly literally translated as follows:
And what are dark deeds with dark results?

Katamañca, puṇṇa, kammaṃ kaṇhaṃ kaṇhavipākaṃ?

It’s when someone makes hurtful choices by way of body, speech, and mind.

Idha, puṇṇa, ekacco sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti.

Having made these choices, it follows they proceed to a hurtful world,

So sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.
In other words, despite Cappuccino's objections, it appears a "here-&-now upapajjati" is possible.

Regards :smile:
Hmm. I think that again you are trying to shoehorn a word meaning from one sutta into another, not because it makes sense in the other context, but because it suits your agenda.
You seem determined to airbrush rebirth out of the suttas, and that bias inevitably has a major impact on the way you approach the language of the suttas.

In Suttas like AN6.57 about kamma, translating upapajjati as "rebirth" seems reasonable to me (ie "following birth"). In other contexts a different translation will be appropriate. It's like you are continually trying to bang square pegs into round holes, deliberately ignoring the context and forcing in the meaning that suits your agenda. That is no way to approach an ancient text.

And just to be clear, I am personally agnostic about rebirth, and Im not out to "prove" that it exists, or argue that its an essential teaching, or that people should believe in it, or whatever. On the hand the suttas clearly DO include references to rebirth, and I object to your continual bias and misrepresentation on this question.
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:52 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:29 am
analysis won't necessarily lead to faith

faith is necessary to accept rebirth
:focus:
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:58 am
sam·sa·ra
noun
the cycle of death and rebirth to which life in the material world is bound.
:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:32 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:58 am

sam·sa·ra
noun
the cycle of death and rebirth to which life in the material world is bound.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:02 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:52 am
Hmm.
No point in your making low quality replies that offer no analysis. "Upapajjati" does not appear to literally mean "reincarnation".
Yuttadhammo Monk wrote:The entire premise of your question is faulty, unfortunately. The Buddha never, afaik, used a term that could be translated as "rebirth".

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... 0113#10113
upa + pad + ya = upapajjati
paṭi + pad + ya = paṭipajjati
u + pad + ya = uppajjati

The above words appear derived in the same way and the last two are unrelated to "reincarnation". Each share the word "pad", which appears to mean "to walk" or "go". The prefix "pati" appears to mean "opposite". Therefore, these three terms appear to mean:

upa + pad + ya = upapajjati = move from a related/similar thing to a related/similar thing, for example, from violence (killing) to violence (hell)
paṭi + pad + ya = paṭipajjati = move from a different thing to a different opposite thing, for example, go from suffering to Nibbana
u + pad + ya = uppajjati = move from a dissimilar thing to a dissimilar but related thing, for example, consciousness arising from physical eye

"pad" appears to mean "to walk" or "proceed".

upapajjati appears to mean to proceed directly from but returning to the former (example, remorse about former evil deeds)
paṭipajjati appears to mean to proceed away from the former (example, suffering to Nibbana)
uppajjati appears to mean to arise supported by something else (example, consciousness arising from physical eye)
upa

[Vedic upa; Av. upa on, up; Gr. ὑπό under, ὑπέρ over; Lat. sub fr. *(e)ks-upo; Goth. uf under & on; Ohg ūf = Ags. up = E. up; Oir. fo under. See also upari prefix denoting nearness or close touch (cp. similarly ā) usually with the idea of approach from below or rest on top, on, upon, up, by
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:29 am

analysis won't necessarily lead to faith

faith is necessary to accept rebirth

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:02 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:52 am
Hmm.
No point in your making low quality replies that offer no analysis. "Upapajjati" does not appear to literally mean "reincarnation".
Yuttadhammo Monk wrote:The entire premise of your question is faulty, unfortunately. The Buddha never, afaik, used a term that could be translated as "rebirth".

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... 0113#10113
upa + pad + ya = upapajjati
paṭi + pad + ya = paṭipajjati
u + pad + ya = uppajjati

The above words appear derived in the same way and the last two are unrelated to "reincarnation". Each share the word "pad", which appears to mean "to walk" or "go". The prefix "pati" appears to mean "opposite". Therefore, these three terms appear to mean:

upa + pad + ya = upapajjati = move from a related/similar thing to a related/similar thing, for example, from violence (killing) to violence (hell)
paṭi + pad + ya = paṭipajjati = move from a different thing to a different opposite thing, for example, go from suffering to Nibbana
u + pad + ya = uppajjati = move from a dissimilar thing to a dissimilar but related thing, for example, consciousness arising from physical eye

"pad" appears to mean "to walk" or "proceed".

upapajjati appears to mean to proceed directly from but returning to the former (example, remorse about former evil deeds)
paṭipajjati appears to mean to proceed away from the former (example, suffering to Nibbana)
uppajjati appears to mean to arise supported by something else (example, consciousness arising from physical eye)
upa

[Vedic upa; Av. upa on, up; Gr. ὑπό under, ὑπέρ over; Lat. sub fr. *(e)ks-upo; Goth. uf under & on; Ohg ūf = Ags. up = E. up; Oir. fo under. See also upari prefix denoting nearness or close touch (cp. similarly ā) usually with the idea of approach from below or rest on top, on, upon, up, by
:strawman:
I didn't claim that upapajjati literally means reincarnation, I said that "rebirth" or "following birth" is a reasonable translation in the Sutta in question, which is about the working of kamma and the realms.
The literal meaning of words is only one part of the equation, you also need to carefully examine the context in which words appear.

And opinions on Stack Exchange are, well, just opinions.

You accuse me of making "low quality replies", but on this forum you seem dismissive of ANY view that is different to yours. :shrug:
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:57 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 am
The literal meaning of words is only one part of the equation, you also need to carefully examine the context in which words appear.
It appears you have not been paying attention to the topic, here. In the very 1st post, the OP said a certain "context" of "upapajjati" appears to refer to the "here & now".
auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:20 pm
upapajjati.... sounds like not literal rebirth, but here and now.
Therefore, I replied to the OP "upapajjati" does not literally mean "rebirth" and thus is used in (at least three) here & now contexts. In other words, we have been carefully examining the context but it appears you have not.

:focus: Best to participate in the topic rather than spam discursively.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:57 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 am
The literal meaning of words is only one part of the equation, you also need to carefully examine the context in which words appear.
It appears you have not been paying attention to the topic, here. In the very 1st post, the OP said a certain "context" of "upapajjati" appears to refer to the "here & now".
auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:20 pm
upapajjati.... sounds like not literal rebirth, but here and now.
Therefore, I replied to the OP "upapajjati" does not literally mean "rebirth" and thus is used in (at least three) here & now contexts. In other words, we have been carefully examining the context but it appears you have not.

:focus: Best to participate in the topic rather than spam discursively.
The OP had examples of "rebirth" both in this life and the next. The point I've been making is that you have to look carefully at the context, rather than getting obsessed with "literal" meanings, or pursuing personal agendas.
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:26 am

Greetings,

Ok... I've cleaned up some of the meta-discussion.

Just one thing...

Please either report a post or reply to it... but not both. After all, it's much more difficult to remove content once it's been responded to and embedded into the conversation.

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:09 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:27 am
The OP had examples of "rebirth" both in this life and the next.
Sure but this changes nothing about the meaning of the word "upapajjati". If "upapajjati" occurs after physical death, the word "upapajjati" still does not appear to mean "rebirth". Thus, Thanissaro translates as "reappears". It seems the Pali word "upapajjati" has no relationship to the word "jati".
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:27 am
The point I've been making is that you have to look carefully at the context, rather than getting obsessed with "literal" meanings, or pursuing personal agendas.
Sorry but the above allegations are unfounded given I did nothing of the sort. I never once posted on this topic to say there was no such thing as post-mortem rebirth.
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:27 am
rather than getting obsessed with "literal" meanings, or pursuing personal agendas.
Illogical statement given taking something as not "literal" must be a "personal agenda". :roll: ;)


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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:27 pm

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.31/en/sujato
“Sāriputta, do you see that this has come to be?” “Bhūtamidanti, sāriputta, passasī”ti?
possible the "passasi" isn't the out-breath, but denotes the manasikara what is equal to outbreath, like if it "quacks like duck it is a duck".

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
For I say that close attention to the in-breaths and out-breaths is an aspect of feelings. Vedanāsu vedanāññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ—assāsapassāsānaṃ sādhukaṃ manasikāraṃ.
..
Whenever a mendicant knows that they breathe heavily, Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dīghaṃ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, dīghaṃ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti;
or lightly, rassaṃ vā assasanto ‘rassaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, rassaṃ vā passasanto ‘rassaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti;
or experiencing the whole body, ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;
or stilling the body’s motion—‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;
so the out breath is digham and the cessation- inbreath is rassam. Feeling sukha with the body.
at that time they’re meditating by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. kāye kāyānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.
seem passasi does not apply to manasikara only but manasikara is to do with feelings what arise and pass away like out and in breath.
For I say that the in-breaths and out-breaths are an aspect of the body. Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ—assāsapassāsā.
Could 'cessation of a being(what has come to be)' mean equivalent to the in-breath?

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.31/en/sujato
“Sir, one truly sees with right wisdom that this has come to be. “Bhūtamidanti, bhante, yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passati.
Seeing this, one is practicing for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding what has come to be. Bhūtamidanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya disvā bhūtassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti.
One truly sees with right wisdom that it originated with that as fuel. Tadāhārasambhavanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passati.
Seeing this, one is practicing for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding the fuel for its origination. Tadāhārasambhavanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya disvā āhārasambhavassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti.
One truly sees with right wisdom that when that fuel ceases, what has come to be is liable to cease. Tadāhāranirodhā yaṃ bhūtaṃ taṃ nirodhadhammanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passati.
Seeing this, one is practicing for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding what is liable to cease. Tadāhāranirodhā yaṃ bhūtaṃ taṃ nirodhadhammanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya disvā nirodhadhammassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti.
In this way one is a trainee. Evaṃ kho, bhante, sekkho hoti.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:19 pm

there is rebirth from different realm.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.34/en/sujato
Any deed that emerges from greed—born, sourced, and originated from greed—ripens where that new life-form is born.
Yaṃ, bhikkhave, lobhapakataṃ kammaṃ lobhajaṃ lobhanidānaṃ lobhasamudayaṃ, yatthassa attabhāvo nibbattati tattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati.
that deed is kamma, it is a being what is born from greed. It is not you and it is not in a physical dimension with where your body is it is attabhava what will reborn..
And wherever that deed ripens, its result is experienced—either in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period. Yattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati tattha tassa kammassa vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti, diṭṭhe vā dhamme upapajja vā apare vā pariyāye.
where that attabhava kamma ripens the result is experienced and whereas it is in this life or next life..it is then you who will experience it via body consciousness because you let that attabhava into your mindstream.

fragrance can have a being in it who is waiting an opportunity to be reborn.

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