four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

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auto
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four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:20 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn57/en/sujato
“Puṇṇa, I declare these four kinds of deeds, having realized them with my own insight. “Cattārimāni, puṇṇa, kammāni mayā sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā paveditāni. What four? Katamāni cattāri?

There are dark deeds with dark results; Atthi, puṇṇa, kammaṃ kaṇhaṃ kaṇhavipākaṃ;
bright deeds with bright results; atthi, puṇṇa, kammaṃ sukkaṃ sukkavipākaṃ;
dark and bright deeds with dark and bright results; and atthi, puṇṇa, kammaṃ kaṇhasukkaṃ kaṇhasukkavipākaṃ;
neither dark nor bright deeds with neither dark nor bright results, which lead to the ending of deeds. atthi, puṇṇa, kammaṃ akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ akaṇhaasukkavipākaṃ, kammakkhayāya saṃvattati.
the dark deeds example,

And what are dark deeds with dark results? Katamañca, puṇṇa, kammaṃ kaṇhaṃ kaṇhavipākaṃ?
It’s when someone makes hurtful choices by way of body, speech, and mind. Idha, puṇṇa, ekacco sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti.
Having made these choices, they’re reborn in a hurtful world, So sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.
where hurtful contacts touch them. Tamenaṃ sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapannaṃ samānaṃ sabyābajjhā phassā phusanti.
Touched by hurtful contacts, they experience hurtful feelings that are exclusively painful—like the beings in hell. So sabyābajjhehi phassehi phuṭṭho samāno sabyābajjhaṃ vedanaṃ vedeti ekantadukkhaṃ, seyyathāpi sattā nerayikā.
This is how a being is born from a being. Iti kho, puṇṇa, bhūtā bhūtassa upapatti hoti;
For your deeds determine your rebirth, yaṃ karoti tena upapajjati,
and when you’re reborn contacts affect you. upapannamenaṃ phassā phusanti.
This is why I say that sentient beings are heirs to their deeds. Evampāhaṃ, puṇṇa, ‘kammadāyādā sattā’ti vadāmi.
These are called dark deeds with dark results. Idaṃ vuccati, puṇṇa, kammaṃ kaṇhaṃ kaṇhavipākaṃ. (1)
sounds like not literal rebirth, but here and now.

interesting:
This is how a being is born from a being. Iti kho, puṇṇa, bhūtā bhūtassa upapatti hoti;
literal rebirth case:

https://suttacentral.net/an6.57/en/sujato
I, however, also describe six classes of rebirth. Ahaṃ kho panānanda, chaḷabhijātiyo paññāpemi.
Listen and pay close attention, I will speak.” Taṃ suṇāhi, sādhukaṃ manasi karohi; bhāsissāmī”ti.
“Yes, sir,” Ānanda replied. “Evaṃ, bhante”ti kho āyasmā ānando bhagavato paccassosi.
The Buddha said this: Bhagavā etadavoca:
“And what, Ānanda, are the six classes of rebirth? “katamā cānanda, chaḷabhijātiyo?
Someone born into a dark class gives rise to a dark result. Idhānanda, ekacco kaṇhābhijātiyo samāno kaṇhaṃ dhammaṃ abhijāyati.
Someone born into a dark class gives rise to a bright result. Idha panānanda, ekacco kaṇhābhijātiyo samāno sukkaṃ dhammaṃ abhijāyati.
Someone born into a dark class gives rise to extinguishment, which is neither dark nor bright. Idha panānanda, ekacco kaṇhābhijātiyo samāno akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ nibbānaṃ abhijāyati.
Someone born into a bright class gives rise to a dark result. Idha panānanda, ekacco sukkābhijātiyo samāno kaṇhaṃ dhammaṃ abhijāyati.
Someone born into a bright class gives rise to a bright result. Idha panānanda, ekacco sukkābhijātiyo samāno sukkaṃ dhammaṃ abhijāyati.
Someone born into a bright class gives rise to extinguishment, which is neither dark nor bright. Idha panānanda, ekacco sukkābhijātiyo samāno akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ nibbānaṃ abhijāyati.
And how does someone born into a dark class give rise to a dark result? Kathañcānanda, kaṇhābhijātiyo samāno kaṇhaṃ dhammaṃ abhijāyati? It’s when someone is reborn in a low family—a family of outcastes, bamboo-workers, hunters, chariot-makers, or waste-collectors—poor, with little to eat or drink, where life is tough, and food and shelter are hard to find. Idhānanda, ekacco nīce kule paccājāto hoti—caṇḍālakule vā nesādakule vā venakule vā rathakārakule vā pukkusakule vā, dalidde appannapānabhojane kasiravuttike, yattha kasirena ghāsacchādo labbhati.
And they’re ugly, unsightly, deformed, chronically ill—one-eyed, crippled, lame, or half-paralyzed. They don’t get to have food, drink, clothes, and vehicles; garlands, fragrance, and makeup; or bed, house, and lighting. So ca hoti dubbaṇṇo duddasiko okoṭimako bavhābādho kāṇo vā kuṇī vā khañjo vā pakkhahato vā, na lābhī annassa pānassa vatthassa yānassa mālāgandhavilepanassa seyyāvasathapadīpeyyassa.
And they do bad things by way of body, speech, and mind. So kāyena duccaritaṃ carati, vācāya duccaritaṃ carati, manasā duccaritaṃ carati.

When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. So kāyena duccaritaṃ caritvā, vācāya duccaritaṃ caritvā, manasā duccaritaṃ caritvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ nirayaṃ upapajjati.
it seem being can born from a being and it can be also literal like birth from a womb.

auto
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:36 pm

https://suttacentral.net/an6.57/en/sujato
And how does someone born into a bright class give rise to extinguishment, which is neither dark nor bright? Kathañcānanda, sukkābhijātiyo samāno akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ nibbānaṃ abhijāyati?
It’s when some person is reborn in an eminent family … Idhānanda, ekacco ucce kule paccājāto hoti—khattiyamahāsālakule vā brāhmaṇamahāsālakule vā gahapatimahāsālakule vā, aḍḍhe mahaddhane mahābhoge pahūtajātarūparajate pahūtavittūpakaraṇe pahūtadhanadhaññe. So ca hoti abhirūpo dassanīyo pāsādiko paramāya vaṇṇapokkharatāya samannāgato, lābhī annassa pānassa vatthassa yānassa mālāgandhavilepanassa seyyāvasathapadīpeyyassa.
They shave off their hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness. So kesamassuṃ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajati.
They give up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. They firmly establish their mind in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. They truly develop the seven awakening factors. And then they give rise to extinguishment, which is neither dark nor bright. So evaṃ pabbajito samāno pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe, catūsu satipaṭṭhānesu suppatiṭṭhitacitto, satta bojjhaṅge yathābhūtaṃ bhāvetvā akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ nibbānaṃ abhijāyati.
That’s how someone born into a bright class gives rise to extinguishment, which is neither dark nor bright. Evaṃ kho, ānanda, sukkābhijātiyo samāno akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ nibbānaṃ abhijāyati. (6)

so the extinguishment is neither kaṇha nor sukka.

hmm kanha and sukka sound mystical.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/kaṇha
kaṇhaパーリ語辞典 水野弘元著
kaṇha:a.[Sk.kṛṣṇa] 黑き,黒色の,黒 [魔] ,邪悪の.-kamma 黒業,悪業.-pakkha 黒分,満月後の半月 [新月] -vipāka 黒報.
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kaṇha漢譯パーリ語辭典 黃秉榮譯
kaṇha:a.[Sk.kṛṣṇa] (cf.kāla) 黑的,黑色的,黑 [魔] ,邪惡的.-kamma 黑業,惡業.-pakkha 黑分,滿月後的半月 [新月].-vipāka 黑報.
sukkaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Sukka,2 (adj.) [Vedic śukla] white,bright; bright,pure,good S.II,240; V,66,104; Dh.87; Dhs.1303; It.36; J.I,129; Miln.200; sukkadhamma J.I,129; kaṇhāsukkaṁ evil and good Sn.526; Sukkā a class of gods D.II,260.

--aṁsa bright lot,fortune Dh.72; DhA.II,73.--chavi having a white skin J.IV,184; VI,508; at both pass.said of the sons of widows.--pakkha [cp.BSk.śukla-pakṣa Divy 38] the bright fortnight of a month A.II,19; Miln.388; J.IV,26 (opp.kāḷa-pakkha); the bright half,the good opportunity Th.2,358; ThA.2.(Page 715)
sukkaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Sukka,1 [Vedic śukra; fr.śuc] planet,star Ud.9=Nett 150; (nt.) semen,sukkavisaṭṭhi emission of semen Vin.II,38; III,112; IV,30; Kvu 163.(Page 715)

Is nibbana related to reproduction centers?

we know a lot about pleasure through senses, finer pleasure through jhanas up to highest jhana, but the best of the best is nibbana what doesn't led to rebirth to lower worlds nor heavenly.

auto
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:02 pm

It’s when someone makes hurtful choices by way of body, speech, and mind.
Having made these choices,
they’re reborn in a hurtful world,
where hurtful contacts touch them.

but that is confusing:
Touched by hurtful contacts, they experience hurtful feelings that are exclusively painful—like the beings in hell.
hell isn't a world? niraya is not a loka?

Touched by pleasing contacts, they experience pleasing feelings that are exclusively happy—like the gods replete with glory.
looks like not literal birth.
This is why I say that sentient beings are heirs to their deeds.
but this from different Sutta is literal,https://suttacentral.net/an6.57/en/sujato
And they do bad things by way of body, speech, and mind.
When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:55 pm

auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:20 pm
literal rebirth case:

https://suttacentral.net/an6.57/en/sujato

abhijātiyo
Does not sound like rebirth or reincarnation to me. Bhikkhu Bodhi simply translates "abhijātiyo" as "class".
auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:02 pm
hell isn't a world? niraya is not a loka?
Of course "hell" is a "loka" ("world"); just as "jhana" is a "loka" (MN 79)
And what are dark deeds with dark results?
Katamañca, puṇṇa, kammaṃ kaṇhaṃ kaṇhavipākaṃ?

It’s when someone makes hurtful choices by way of body, speech, and mind.
Idha, puṇṇa, ekacco sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti.

Having made these choices, they’re reborn in a hurtful world,
So sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.

where hurtful contacts touch them.
Tamenaṃ sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapannaṃ samānaṃ sabyābajjhā phassā phusanti.

Touched by hurtful contacts, they experience hurtful feelings that are exclusively painful—like the beings in hell.
So sabyābajjhehi phassehi phuṭṭho samāno sabyābajjhaṃ vedanaṃ vedeti ekantadukkhaṃ, seyyathāpi sattā nerayikā.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:58 pm

your problem is solved if rebirth isn't true

hence the entire teaching is just optional

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:59 pm

just a pebble is this life

compared to the entire earth of many lifetimes

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:00 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:58 pm
your problem is solved if rebirth isn't true

hence the entire teaching is just optional
So quick to spam with personal unsubstantiated comments. Regardless if you ideas about "rebirth" are true or not, it appears "abhijātiyo" does not mean "rebirth".

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:02 pm

so quick to dismiss a valid point

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:04 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:02 pm
so quick to dismiss a valid point
Your point is off-topic.

Even if the Buddha did teach about "rebirth", the sutta AN 6.57 quoted in the OP appears to not about be "rebirth".

If the OP is read with mindfulness & calmness, it will be discerned AN 6.57 is not about "rebirth".

:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:05 pm

truth is the topic

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:05 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:05 pm
truth is the topic
Yes, and your impulsive posts appear to be false.

:focus:
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:06 pm
maybe you don't understand the concern for the truth
:focus:
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:23 pm
some people cannot handle the idea of hell
:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:12 pm

auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:02 pm
looks like not literal birth.
Its literal birth. It seems word "jati" does not always mean "physical birth". Here & now "heaven" & "hell" are explained in places in the suttas, such as:
“Bhikkhus, it is a gain for you, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life. I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.

“It is a gain for you, bhikkhus, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life. I have seen, bhikkhus, the heaven named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; lovely, never unlovely; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is desirable, never undesirable; lovely, never unlovely; agreeable, never disagreeable.

“It is a gain for you, bhikkhus, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
Unlike Cappuccino, i suggest to not cling to one narrow perspective of the Dhamma. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:23 pm

like all states of mind, there is a realm for those states of mind

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by chownah » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:53 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:23 pm
like all states of mind, there is a realm for those states of mind
There is no realm for states of mind.
chownah

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:54 am

chownah wrote:
cappuccino wrote: like all states of mind, there is a realm for those states of mind
There is no realm for states of mind.
The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka) consists of sixteen realms whose inhabitants (the devas) experience extremely refined degrees of mental pleasure. These realms are accessible to those who have attained at least some level of jhana

Planes of Existence

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