okay.Jerafreyr wrote: ↑Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:00 pmBuddha stated the consciousness is the khanda that takes rebirth. He also stated the consciousness doesn't remain the same.
Through the words of awakened ones, through analytical contemplation, and from reflecting on my own practice. There doesn't need to be a self for awareness to manifest. Adding a self to the mix is what westerners call a security blanket.
..Aggivessana, this body is physical. It’s made up of the four primary elements, produced by mother and father, built up from rice and porridge, liable to impermanence, to wearing away and erosion, to breaking up and destruction. You should see it as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
Doing so, you’ll give up desire, affection, and subservience to the body.
At a time when you feel a pleasant feeling, you don’t feel a painful or neutral feeling;
..At a time when you feel a painful feeling, you don’t feel a pleasant or neutral feeling;
Pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings are impermanent, conditioned, dependently originated, liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.
the rebirth seem to be regards to desire fades away, and coming free and knowing about being free. The knowledge of rebirth being ended is just certain type of knowing what can be also expanded or correlated with macro events like actual birth and death.Seeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings.
Being disillusioned, desire fades away. When desire fades away they’re freed. When they’re freed, they know they’re freed.
They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
Don't say self isn't requiered, it is requiered for advanged practice. Advanged because you make it so telling about sense of self is unnessesary to the point you make yourself sound polar opposite.
also jiva - livelyhood. ājiva - wrong livelyhood. jiva is individual soul. You need have pro-jiva view.
A Realized One is freed from reckoning in terms of form. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom, Rūpasaṅkhayavimutto kho, vaccha, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāḷho— like the ocean. seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.
‘They’re reborn’, ‘they’re not reborn’, ‘they’re both reborn and not reborn’, ‘they’re neither reborn nor not reborn’—none of these apply. Upapajjatīti na upeti, na upapajjatīti na upeti, upapajjati ca na ca upapajjatīti na upeti, neva upapajjati na na upapajjatīti na upeti.
Any feeling … perception … choices …
consciousness by which a Realized One might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. Yena viññāṇena tathāgataṃ paññāpayamāno paññāpeyya taṃ viññāṇaṃ tathāgatassa pahīnaṃ ucchinnamūlaṃ tālāvatthukataṃ anabhāvaṅkataṃ āyatiṃ anuppādadhammaṃ. A Realized One is freed from reckoning in terms of consciousness. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom, Viññāṇasaṅkhayavimutto kho, vaccha, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāḷho— like the ocean. seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo. ‘They’re reborn’, ‘they’re not reborn’, ‘they’re both reborn and not reborn’, ‘they’re neither reborn nor not reborn’—none of these apply.” Upapajjatīti na upeti, na upapajjatīti na upeti, upapajjati ca na ca upapajjatīti na upeti, neva upapajjati na na upapajjatīti na upetī”ti.
see, realized one can't be reconed in terms of khadhas.
debate about four positions in another no self thread but there you see the point that when you can't recon Tathagata then you have these four positions to refer to him when try to make point about Realized One.