Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

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cookiemonster
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Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by cookiemonster » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:19 pm

A post from SarathW made me think:
SarathW wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:35 am
What Sotapanna assures is free from lower life. (Apaya) In other words, he will be free from the bad Kamma which he was done in the past which will take him to lower life.
Since we must "own" our kamma ("I am the owner of actions [kamma]" AN 5.57), and presumably many of our past actions were negligent and unskillful which may have resulted in rebirth in the lower realms, what happens to the vipaka - the fruit - of those past negligent, unskillful kamma when one attains sotapatti?

I'm guessing that it must manifest in the present as suffering in the mind for the sotapanna, since none of that vipaka can manifest through rebirth in the lower realms. Thoughts?

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DooDoot
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:32 pm

for the noble disciple, old kamma is something to be “felt” rather than something regarded as “mine”. There are two suttas on “old kamma” that SarathW can post. I recall one of these suttas is SN 12.37. The other SN 35.145.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:39 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:19 pm

Since we must "own" our kamma ("I am the owner of actions [kamma]" AN 5.57), and presumably many of our past actions were negligent and unskillful which may have resulted in rebirth in the lower realms, what happens to the vipaka - the fruit - of those past negligent, unskillful kamma when one attains sotapatti?

I'm guessing that it must manifest in the present as suffering in the mind for the sotapanna, since none of that vipaka can manifest through rebirth in the lower realms. Thoughts?
Even arahants can apparently suffer as a result of past misdeeds:
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

(MN 86)
And that seems to include physical suffering as well.

There is also the teaching in AN 3.99:
There is the case where a certain individual is developed in the body,[3] developed in virtue, developed in mind [i.e., painful feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there], developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
So for that developed Sotapanna, there might not be much suffering at all.

SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by SarathW » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:41 pm

I'm guessing that it must manifest in the present as suffering in the mind for the sotapanna
Agree.
Whatever the Vipaka S(he) experience are not in a lower realm.
Hear lower realm means an animal, Ghost and Apaya.
See Apaya in the following link.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:43 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:39 pm
Even arahants can apparently suffer as a result of past misdeeds:
What evidence is there Angulimala "suffered"? :shrug: I recall, in the Pali, the word for "bear it" in MN 86 is the same word for when the Buddha was old and had to "bear" painful feelings in DN 16.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:12 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:39 pm
Even arahants can apparently suffer as a result of past misdeeds:
What evidence is there Angulimala "suffered"? :shrug: I recall, in the Pali, the word for "bear it" in MN 86 is the same word for when the Buddha was old and had to "bear" painful feelings in DN 16.
I can't really see a meaningful distinction between suffering and the undergoing or enduring of painful feelings in these two contexts.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:15 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:12 pm
I can't really see a meaningful distinction between suffering and the undergoing or enduring of painful feelings in these two contexts.
So, similar to Stephen Batchelor, the above seems to say the Buddha did not end dukkha. Where do the sutta equate "painful feelings" with "suffering"? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:25 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:15 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:12 pm
I can't really see a meaningful distinction between suffering and the undergoing or enduring of painful feelings in these two contexts.
So, similar to Stephen Batchelor, the above seems to say the Buddha did not end dukkha. Where do the sutta equate "painful feelings" with "suffering"? :shrug:
SN 45.165, and passim.

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cappuccino
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:57 pm

suffering is sort of a poor translation

stress would be a better translation

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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:58 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:25 pm
SN 45.165
SN 45.165 appear insufficiently unambiguous to support the above inference. Mistranslations & misinterpretations of SN 45.165 do not override unambiguous core principles that summarise all dukkhas as attachment (upadana).
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:00 pm

stress is different than suffering

maybe that's lost in translation

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DooDoot
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:01 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:00 pm
maybe that's lost in translation
For me, SN 45.165 merely refers to suffering about pain rather than suffering of pain. In other words, I think SN 45.165 refers to attachment to painful feelings; attachment to change & attachment to mental concoctions. In other words, suffering about pain, suffering about change & suffering about mental concoctions.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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cappuccino
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:04 pm

lost in translation just means the translator wasn't aware of the meaning

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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by Virgo » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:19 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:19 pm
A post from SarathW made me think:
SarathW wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:35 am
What Sotapanna assures is free from lower life. (Apaya) In other words, he will be free from the bad Kamma which he was done in the past which will take him to lower life.
Since we must "own" our kamma ("I am the owner of actions [kamma]" AN 5.57), and presumably many of our past actions were negligent and unskillful which may have resulted in rebirth in the lower realms, what happens to the vipaka - the fruit - of those past negligent, unskillful kamma when one attains sotapatti?

I'm guessing that it must manifest in the present as suffering in the mind for the sotapanna, since none of that vipaka can manifest through rebirth in the lower realms. Thoughts?
Once one attains parinibanna, one has removed all causes for any becoming, and no vipaka can arise any more, ever again.

Once one has attained sotapanna, though one still has causes for further becoming, the bojjanhgas are established in one, and there is no possibility to be reborn in the lower realms of suffering any more.

Kevin
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Sam Vara
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Re: Sotapanna & past kamma-vipaka

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:58 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:25 pm
SN 45.165
SN 45.165 appear insufficiently unambiguous to support the above inference. Mistranslations & misinterpretations of SN 45.165 do not override unambiguous core principles that summarise all dukkhas as attachment (upadana).
It doesn't seem ambiguous, mistranslated or misinterpreted to me. The Dictionary definition of "pain, distress, trouble" seems to fit all contexts.

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