Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

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sentinel
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by sentinel »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 10:02 pm Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:43 pm I am reading this story accurately? This story appears miraculous; that a man changes into a woman instantly and can also conceive and bear children. :shock:
As a general rule, to take one's Dhamma from Commentarial Stories and/or Jatakas, rather than the original Suttas (& Vinaya in the case of monastic practice), is a risky method liable to distortions.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Isn't this consider miracles ?

(manomaya-kāya);
(iddhividha);
(dibbasotadhātu);
(cetopariyañāṇa); (pubbenivāsānussatiñāṇa)
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mikenz66
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi C,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:11 am So because I’m a bottom I can’t be ordained despite having had sex with less people when compared to the average straight male or female? ...
You might find this essay interesting:
The meaning of paṇḍaka in light of the Vedic and Jain scriptures
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... ures/12894

:heart:
Mike
sentinel
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by sentinel »

I have several questions in mind .

1.
For gays or bi or les etc being a lay buddhist is not a problem at all , the question is if they (couple) have sexual relationship , would the sexual acts through non reproductive organ as the means constitute violation of the precept ?

2.
If permitted by the vinaya ,
For gays /bi /les Etc to join monastic , how should them get fitted into the male and female sangha ?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Sam Vara »

sentinel wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 12:57 pm If permitted by the vinaya ,
For gays /bi /les Etc to join monastic , how should them get fitted into the male and female sangha ?
If permitted by the vinaya, then they would join the male or female Sangha according to their biological sex. Gay, lesbian, and bi are to do with orientation, not sex.
sentinel
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by sentinel »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 1:02 pm
sentinel wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 12:57 pm If permitted by the vinaya ,
For gays /bi /les Etc to join monastic , how should them get fitted into the male and female sangha ?
If permitted by the vinaya, then they would join the male or female Sangha according to their biological sex. Gay, lesbian, and bi are to do with orientation, not sex.
Sorry , say if biologically male but mentality is female , the person is to join female sangha right ?
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form
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by form »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:46 am Hi C,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:11 am So because I’m a bottom I can’t be ordained despite having had sex with less people when compared to the average straight male or female? ...
You might find this essay interesting:
The meaning of paṇḍaka in light of the Vedic and Jain scriptures
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... ures/12894

:heart:
Mike
The third sex to contain all the neither this nor that?
lostitude
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by lostitude »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:20 am
Oh I’m not worried. I know it’s nonsense. Not to get too crass but the Buddha allowed for “men who swallow seamen” to be ordained. That pretty much covers gays.
I think only Moby Dick has ever swallowed seamen. :clap:
Sam Vara wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 1:02 pm
sentinel wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 12:57 pm If permitted by the vinaya ,
For gays /bi /les Etc to join monastic , how should them get fitted into the male and female sangha ?
If permitted by the vinaya, then they would join the male or female Sangha according to their biological sex. Gay, lesbian, and bi are to do with orientation, not sex.
At any rate, isn't it a safe assumption that (at least in Western countries) someone who goes for monkhood is someone who already has a solid foundation in buddhist practice, has pretty much figured out the basis of desires (including sexual ones), and is possibly equipped with some degree of skills/understanding to not let such desires arise?
I may be naive, but I'm under the impression that such questions regarding gender segregation and what not arise only for people who haven't really decided themselves to become monks but have been pressured into monkhood for social reasons.

Also, I don't understand in this story of that man turned into a woman, why a simple lustful thought caused him such a nasty ( :tongue: ) fate. I was again under the impression that a lustful thought, being just an uncontrollably arisen experience, can make bad kamma only if you act it out. Any explanations? Thanks.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Sam Vara »

sentinel wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 1:06 pm

Sorry , say if biologically male but mentality is female , the person is to join female sangha right ?
No, as far as I understand it, you can only join the male sangha if you are biologically male, and the female sangha if biologically female. I'm not sure if you are equating "female mentality" with a man being gay; if so, that's far from the case. Lots of gay men don't have what might be called a "female mentality". Have another read of the Pannobhasa article.
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Sam Vara »

lostitude wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 1:36 pm At any rate, isn't it a safe assumption that (at least in Western countries) someone who goes for monkhood is someone who already has a solid foundation in buddhist practice, has pretty much figured out the basis of desires (including sexual ones), and is possibly equipped with some degree of skills/understanding to not let such desires arise?
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I believe Ceisiwr referred (if not in this thread, then recently) to exercising control when on retreat. To ordain when one knows that uncontrollable desires are likely to arise would indeed be foolish.
Also, I don't understand in this story of that man turned into a woman, why a simple lustful thought caused him such a nasty ( :tongue: ) fate. I was again under the impression that a lustful thought, being just an uncontrollably arisen experience, can make bad kamma only if you act it out. Any explanations? Thanks.
That's a good point, which I hadn't considered. I can only assume that the kamma was associated with a mental action, maybe an intention, rather than a mere feeling. The Pannobhasa link describes it thus:
When the treasurer’s son Soreyya saw the golden-hued body of the Elder, he thought to himself, “Oh, that this Elder might become my wife! Else may the hue of my wife’s body become like the hue of his body!”
That seems to indicate that there was a degree of wishing, longing, and wilfully dwelling on the object of desire. That, unlike an uncontrolled mental lapse, would presumably be kammically active.
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by sentinel »

Some questions comes to mind .

1. Deformed , handicapped people , mentally ill , schizophrenia , terminally ill not permitted to join monastic , do you regard as discrimination ?

2. If animals (such as Naga) wants to ordain , but refused , is this discrimination ?

3. Too young(under 8) , too old(over 80/90) not received by monastic , is this discrimination ?

4. Pandaka(gays, bi , les etc) if not allowed going forth , is this discrimination ?
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lostitude
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by lostitude »

sentinel wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 3:29 pm Some questions comes to mind .

1. Deformed , handicapped people , mentally ill , schizophrenia , terminally ill not permitted to join monastic , do you regard as discrimination ?

2. If animals (such as Naga) wants to ordain , but refused , is this discrimination ?

3. Too young(under 8) , too old(over 80/90) not received by monastic , is this discrimination ?

4. Pandaka(gays, bi , les etc) if not allowed going forth , is this discrimination ?
The problem is not banning people from monkhood per se. The problem is banning them for the wrong reasons. For each of those examples, ask yourself why they should be banned and you will have your answers.
sentinel
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by sentinel »

lostitude wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 4:13 pm The problem is not banning people from monkhood per se. The problem is banning them for the wrong reasons. For each of those examples, ask yourself why they should be banned and you will have your answers.
The Wrong reasons is what ?
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by lostitude »

sentinel wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 5:09 pm
lostitude wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 4:13 pm The problem is not banning people from monkhood per se. The problem is banning them for the wrong reasons. For each of those examples, ask yourself why they should be banned and you will have your answers.
The Wrong reasons is what ?
You tell me... unless I misunderstood this whole thread, at least gays and lesbians are not barred from monasteries.
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by form »

Panabhasa still stayed in a cave?
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mikenz66
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by mikenz66 »

form wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 1:23 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:46 am Hi C,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:11 am So because I’m a bottom I can’t be ordained despite having had sex with less people when compared to the average straight male or female? ...
You might find this essay interesting:
The meaning of paṇḍaka in light of the Vedic and Jain scriptures
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... ures/12894

:heart:
Mike
The third sex to contain all the neither this nor that?
I don't understand your question. The essay is a detailed examination of a complex issue which can't be easily reduced to a yes/no answer to such questions.

:heart:
Mike
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