Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by form » Tue May 28, 2019 8:30 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 4:58 am
Hi Form,

I am sorry, since I have not studied the essay in great detail, so I am reluctant to comment.

I posted the link because I thought it might be a helpful resource for those who want to dig into the meaning of the terms in the Vinaya. If you have technical questions, I suggest you post them on the SuttaCentral thread.

:heart:
Mike
It is OK Mike. I tend to extract fact from article and try to apply practically. That is just my habit. No worries.

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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue May 28, 2019 8:48 pm

lostitude wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:53 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:41 pm
In any virile society where men are free, to bend over and allow another man to penetrate them as he would a woman is a decapitational offence to the manhood of the receiver of this infamy. There is no way this "man" could ever regain his reputation as such in the company of other men - he would be a social outcast for the rest of his life.
And this is only natural from an evolutionary POV, as this is the best way to optimize reproduction.

Therefore, if Darwin is correct, his own believers are going to go extinct while those who believe in a stone-age moon godess fertility cult will eliminate the teaching of Darwin in schools.

Personally, I don't believe in Darwinism. Maybe thats why my gene's live on through my offspring, in a strange chain of logic.

The fruits of this path will be all too apparent in the next generation or two, but it would make Churchill hold his head in absolute shame.
How? When you keep in mind the fact that probably less than 5% of the population is homosexual, can you really ascribe the low birthrate in the West to the gays not doing their part? Though that may be true in a primitive society struggling for survival with very high maternal and newborn mortality rates, incessant wars killing off all the males with the resultant polygamy that was needed to take care of the widows in patriarchal societies, the 21st century is way past that and such attitudes no longer make any sense.

Not in itself does homosexuality makeup the aggregate of the birth rate, but all things being equal, does it increase it, decrease it, or make it stay the same? Ceteris Parabis, I'm asking?

The gayest civilization of all time was Islam (I use past tense since the remnants of this civilization are but bitter fruits of a once glorious society) in the sense that these males loved to penetrate other men - but they didn't want to receive. They are still extremely gay, an example being the "Bachi Boys" in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
I doubt that pedophilia in Afghanistan and Pakistan was brought in by Islam. I'm pretty sure it predates it, and don't forget those same areas have been Buddhist in the past.
You say you doubt, but historical records point to muslims practicing gay-rape wherever they go on a massive scale, and no such records exist for Buddhists.

So, there's that.

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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by santa100 » Tue May 28, 2019 9:17 pm

Sam Vara wrote:David Reynolds shares his (surprisingly mild, and apparently orthodox) views on sexual orientation, etc. This could have gone in the ordination or personal relationships sections, but seems to overlap.
If we're talking about folks going to be ordained as full time monks, not sure why their sexual orientation history matter. Any full time professional monk will have to observe strict celibacy precepts, regardless of their "historical background", which means he will stop putting his organ into any kind of orifice, organic or inorganic; and neither will he let any of his orifices be penetrated by any object, organic or inorganic.

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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 28, 2019 9:25 pm

santa100 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:17 pm
Sam Vara wrote:David Reynolds shares his (surprisingly mild, and apparently orthodox) views on sexual orientation, etc. This could have gone in the ordination or personal relationships sections, but seems to overlap.
If we're talking about folks going to be ordained as full time monks, not sure why their sexual orientation history matter.
Because that's what the article, in part, deals with: the sexual history of people proposing ordination. It's about "Ordination and Monastic Life" and "Family Life and Relationships".

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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by robertk » Wed May 29, 2019 3:42 am

posts debating evolution moved here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=12103

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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by form » Wed May 29, 2019 7:10 am

santa100 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:17 pm
Sam Vara wrote:David Reynolds shares his (surprisingly mild, and apparently orthodox) views on sexual orientation, etc. This could have gone in the ordination or personal relationships sections, but seems to overlap.
If we're talking about folks going to be ordained as full time monks, not sure why their sexual orientation history matter. Any full time professional monk will have to observe strict celibacy precepts, regardless of their "historical background", which means he will stop putting his organ into any kind of orifice, organic or inorganic; and neither will he let any of his orifices be penetrated by any object, organic or inorganic.
There could be incidents where the Buddha received complaints or even witness male monks sexually harassed other monk and hence he lay down this rule.

Before enlisting into the army, recruits are asked to declare their sexual orientation. Those men that like men will be posted to special vocation where they are less likely to see naked men. When they are tempted by the voice, form, smell..... of men like in the first few pages of AN except, they were male rather than female. I see the case similar in a all male sangha.

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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by lostitude » Wed May 29, 2019 8:40 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:48 pm
lostitude wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:53 pm
How? When you keep in mind the fact that probably less than 5% of the population is homosexual, can you really ascribe the low birthrate in the West to the gays not doing their part? Though that may be true in a primitive society struggling for survival with very high maternal and newborn mortality rates, incessant wars killing off all the males with the resultant polygamy that was needed to take care of the widows in patriarchal societies, the 21st century is way past that and such attitudes no longer make any sense.
Not in itself does homosexuality makeup the aggregate of the birth rate, but all things being equal, does it increase it, decrease it, or make it stay the same? Ceteris Parabis, I'm asking?
I just addressed this in the paragraph you are quoting right here. It makes no sense, in this day and age, to blame less than 5 % of the population for not doing their reproduction job while earth is seriously overpopulated and population growth in many other countries is out of control. It used to be a valid rationale when your tribe had 20 members and needed to have 10 kids per woman so that one or two of those could survive (as is still the case in some African countries by the way). But today, I think there are probably a lot more couples who simply don't want to have kids than there are homosexuals who, incidentally, have more and more opportunities to have and raise children, which renders the whole accusation rather moot.
The gayest civilization of all time was Islam (I use past tense since the remnants of this civilization are but bitter fruits of a once glorious society) in the sense that these males loved to penetrate other men - but they didn't want to receive. They are still extremely gay, an example being the "Bachi Boys" in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
I doubt that pedophilia in Afghanistan and Pakistan was brought in by Islam. I'm pretty sure it predates it, and don't forget those same areas have been Buddhist in the past.
You say you doubt, but historical records point to muslims practicing gay-rape wherever they go on a massive scale, and no such records exist for Buddhists.
Well I doubt even more that you actually have any knowledge of the historical records you are trying to use here to single out Islam (not even sure how this turned up in a conversation about the Buddhist view of pandaka...obsessions...). Slandering a whole civilization based on a caricature ("gay rape", "massive scale", what is that supposed to mean) is a questionable attitude.
The truth is that pederasty largely predates islam, it was common in ancient Greece and ancient Persia, and thus the rest of the Middle east too.
Islam actually fought against this when it came about, as prophet Muhammad specifically banned sodomy, as stated in both the Qur'an and the Hadith, but local customs remained alive. And really you should stop conflating homosexuality, paedophilia, and rape.

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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 29, 2019 11:01 am

lostitude wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 8:40 am
The truth is that pederasty largely predates islam, it was common in ancient Greece and ancient Persia, and thus the rest of the Middle east too. Islam actually fought against this when it came about, as prophet Muhammad specifically banned sodomy, as stated in both the Qur'an and the Hadith, but local customs remained alive. And really you should stop conflating homosexuality, paedophilia, and rape.
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