Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by SarathW » Wed May 22, 2019 12:45 pm

Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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pitakele
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by pitakele » Wed May 22, 2019 12:59 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:45 pm
Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?
I wonder what prompts you to ask this question?

The Triple Gem signifies the end of dukkha & the means to achieving that end.

Simplified, Māra can be viewed as internal obstructions along the way ...
now here = nowhere

budo
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by budo » Wed May 22, 2019 1:05 pm

Could be. You can't know what you don't know, so it can all be just an elaborate trap. However, as the saying goes: no risk, no reward.

However there is this sutta:
"Monks, there are these six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma. One is not subject to falling back. There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it. [1] One is endowed with uncommon knowledge. [2] One rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.

"These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry."
and note:
Pariyanta-katassa na dukkham hoti: In other words, one has no regret over the fact that one will experience rebirth only a limited number of times, and that a limit has been placed on the amount of suffering one is still subject to (see SN 13.1-2, 8). This statement counteracts the notion, sometimes expressed even in Buddhist circles, that a person can get "stuck" in release against his or her will, or that an awakened person might regret putting an end to samsara.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#fn-1

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anthbrown84
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by anthbrown84 » Wed May 22, 2019 1:50 pm

The Buddha himself didn't want us to blindly believe in him. We balance faith with our own findings (aka wisdom).

Questions like this fall under the hindrance of doubt, and should be worked at until they are abandoned.

Anthony
"Your job in practise is to know the difference between the heart and the activity of the heart, that is it, it is that simple" Ajahn Tate

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cappuccino
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by cappuccino » Wed May 22, 2019 4:38 pm

SarathW wrote: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?
this is absurd
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dharmacorps
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by dharmacorps » Wed May 22, 2019 4:52 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:45 pm
Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?
You really must elaborate on this Sarath. Otherwise it just comes off as baseless shot in the dark. :anjali:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 22, 2019 5:03 pm

Until Sarath replies, I'm guessing that this is a variant of Descartes' "evil demon" thought experiment as an instantiation of radical doubt:
The evil demon, also known as malicious demon[1] and evil genius,[2] is a concept in Cartesian philosophy. In the first of his 1641 Meditations on First Philosophy, Descartes imagines that an evil demon, of "utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me." This evil demon is imagined to present a complete illusion of an external world, so that Descartes can say, "I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which he has devised to ensnare my judgement. I shall consider myself as not having hands or eyes, or flesh, or blood or senses, but as falsely believing that I have all these things."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon

Later variations have been called the "Brain in a vat" scenario, and (for the under-40s!) The Matrix.

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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by binocular » Wed May 22, 2019 5:43 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:38 pm
SarathW wrote:Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?
this is absurd
The greatest trick that the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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cappuccino
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by cappuccino » Wed May 22, 2019 7:25 pm

Last edited by cappuccino on Thu May 23, 2019 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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santa100
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by santa100 » Wed May 22, 2019 11:51 pm

SarathW wrote:Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?
Is the thought: "Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?", a product of Mara?

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dylanj
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by dylanj » Thu May 23, 2019 12:58 am

no
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

SarathW
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by SarathW » Thu May 23, 2019 3:32 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:52 pm
SarathW wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:45 pm
Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?
You really must elaborate on this Sarath. Otherwise it just comes off as baseless shot in the dark. :anjali:
I am thinking in terms of counter fit Buddhism. Mahayana, secular Buddhist etc. think that they teach the true Dhamma. If that is the case Teravada Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha a product of Mara.
Buddha warned us against not to hold the Dhamma the wrong way. (snake simile) The snake should be hold by its neck not in his tail. When you hold the Dhamma the wrong way it becomes a product of Mara.
Buddha advise us not to objectify Nibbana. When Nibbana is objectified it becomes the product of Mara.
Noble eightfold path is a fabrication. If we do not see it become a product of Mara. Are all fabrications a product of Mara?
Perhaps the Mara can pretend to be the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Dhammanando
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu May 23, 2019 4:18 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:45 pm
Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?
Yes, in a certain sense.

The Dhamma (in the sense of pariyatti dhamma) and the Sangha arise dependent on a Buddha; a Buddha arises dependent on bodhi; and bodhi arises dependent on at least three of the five Maras.

If there was no Mara as death, then there would be no incentive for a Bodhisatta to seek the deathless, hence no bodhi.

If there was no Mara as the khandhas, then there would be no bodhi, for bodhi depends on developing insight into the khandhas.

If there was no Mara as the instigator of kamma, then there would be no bodhi, for kamma -the suttas say- is "one's vehicle for going beyond."

Some Mahyanists (e.g. fans of the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra) would probably want to put in a good word for all five Maras, but as this isn't the Connections sub-forum I'll leave it at three.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Nwad
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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by Nwad » Thu May 23, 2019 4:41 am

:goodpost:
Mara is, in some kind, a teacher of Buddha. If there was no suffering there would not be the end of suffering. So liberation in a product of prison.

But, more seriously, if by walking 8NP the would be more suffering for us and others so we would be able to say that the Trimple Gem have evis as the cause and evil as result. But it not the case. Imho

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Re: Are Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha a product of Mara?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 23, 2019 5:08 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:32 am
Are all fabrications a product of Mara?
No.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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