How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

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Srilankaputra
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How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat May 18, 2019 4:07 am

Especially the highlighted part
“Mendicants, it’s totally impossible that a mendicant who enjoys company and groups, who loves them and likes to enjoy them, should take pleasure in being alone in seclusion.
“‘So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu saṅgaṇikārāmo saṅgaṇikarato saṅgaṇikārāmataṃ anuyutto, gaṇārāmo gaṇarato gaṇārāmataṃ anuyutto, eko paviveke abhiramissatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

Without taking pleasure in being alone in seclusion, it’s impossible to learn the patterns of the mind.
‘Eko paviveke anabhiramanto cittassa nimittaṃ gahessatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

Without learning the patterns of the mind, it’s impossible to fulfill right view.
‘Cittassa nimittaṃ agaṇhanto sammādiṭṭhiṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

Without fulfilling right view, it’s impossible to fulfill right immersion.
‘Sammādiṭṭhiṃ aparipūretvā sammāsamādhiṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

Without fulfilling right immersion, it’s impossible to give up the fetters.
‘Sammāsamādhiṃ aparipūretvā saṃyojanāni pajahissatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

Without giving up the fetters, it’s impossible to realize extinguishment.
‘Saṃyojanāni appahāya nibbānaṃ sacchikarissatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

It’s totally possible that a mendicant who doesn’t enjoy company and groups, who doesn’t love them and like to enjoy them, should take pleasure in being alone in seclusion.
‘So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu na saṅgaṇikārāmo na saṅgaṇikarato na saṅgaṇikārāmataṃ anuyutto, na gaṇārāmo na gaṇarato na gaṇārāmataṃ anuyutto, eko paviveke abhiramissatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjati.


For someone who takes pleasure in being alone in seclusion, it’s possible to learn the patterns of the mind.
‘Eko paviveke abhiramanto cittassa nimittaṃ gahessatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjati.

For someone who learns the patterns of the mind, it’s possible to fulfill right view.
‘Cittassa nimittaṃ gaṇhanto sammādiṭṭhiṃ paripūressatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjati.

Having fulfilled right view, it’s possible to fulfill right immersion.
‘Sammādiṭṭhiṃ paripūretvā sammāsamādhiṃ paripūressatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjati.

Having fulfilled right immersion, it’s possible to give up the fetters.
‘Sammāsamādhiṃ paripūretvā saṃyojanāni pajahissatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjati.

Having given up the fetters, it’s possible to realize extinguishment.”
‘Saṃyojanāni pahāya nibbānaṃ sacchikarissatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjatī”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.68/en/sujato
OP request ; Much appreciate your thoughts, but please don't debate others. Thank you!
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 18, 2019 4:56 am

How I interpret AN 6.68:

Fulfillment of Right View ("sammādiṭṭhiṃ paripūressatī" in AN 6.68), the forerunner of the Path (MN 117), is clear knowledge & acceptance of the four noble truths (per SN 45.8); which guides the primary Path practise of abandoning craving. Such Right View requires, as a prerequisite, some intimate & distasteful experience of craving, attachment & becoming in order to accept the Right View that attachment is suffering (1st truth) & accept craving & ego-becoming together are the arising of suffering (2nd truth); so the aspiration & determination arises to abandon them. This intimate disagreeable experience of craving, attachment & becoming requires solitude ("paviveke") and requires "cittassa nimittaṃ gahessatī", namely, "apprehending the themes or patterns of the mind"; which is simply:
MN 9 wrote:Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

MN 9
For example, engaging in sensual pleasures, delighting in socializing or aspiring for more reincarnations will not result in experiencing craving, attachment & becoming to a degree where one aspires to give them up. A simple reason why many Buddhist do not understand the 1st & 2nd Noble Truths is because they do not dwell in solitude. Instead, they construct theories that "jati" means "physical birth"; that "life is suffering"; that "craving alone is the cause of dukkha"; that "2nd noble truth is about rebirth/reincarnation", etc.

As for "themes" or "nimitta", these are defined in many places, such as MN 43, as unwholesome states:
MN 43 wrote:Greed, hate and delusion are makers of signs [themes].

Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo.

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
Sri Lankan trained Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of "nimitta" in AN 6.68 as "object" appears illogical & without any clear meaning because "cittassa nimittaṃ gahessatī" appears to be a preliminary practise in AN 6.68; similar to how "yonisomanasikara" is preliminary to the Path (in AN 10.61, SN 45.55, etc). In other words, "nimitta" or "object" does not appear to be Satipattthana or Kammatthana, as Bhikkhu Bhikkhu's translation might be construed to mean. Sujato's translation of [causal] "patterns" is much better. As already noted, "nimitta" are generally unwholesome states.

Also, since in AN 6.68 "cittassa nimittaṃ gahessatī" is before "sammāsamādhiṃ paripūressatī" ("fulfilment of concentration"), "cittassa nimittaṃ gahessatī" obviously is not about any Visuddhimagga jhana nimitta therefore there is no need to get excited with papanca about this. :smile:
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uojm
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by uojm » Sat May 18, 2019 8:17 am

SN47.8 Sūda - The Cook

sentinel
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by sentinel » Sat May 18, 2019 9:29 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 4:56 am
How I interpret AN 6.68:

attachment is suffering (1st truth) & accept craving & ego-becoming together are the arising of suffering (2nd truth);
I thought attachment is the second truth !




DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 4:56 am
Sri Lankan trained Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of "nimitta" in AN 6.68 as "object" appears illogical & without any clear meaning because "cittassa nimittaṃ gahessatī" appears to be a preliminary practise in AN 6.68;

In other words, "nimitta" or "object" does not appear to be Satipattthana or Kammatthana, as Bhikkhu Bhikkhu's translation might be construed to mean. Sujato's translation of [causal] "patterns" is much better. As already noted, "nimitta" are generally unwholesome states.
I don't think it refer to unwholesome state
It should be object or sign

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 4:56 am
obviously is not about any Visuddhimagga jhana nimitta
Agree



Regards
Last edited by sentinel on Sat May 18, 2019 11:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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budo
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by budo » Sat May 18, 2019 10:00 am

Srilankaputra, I take it as concentration but without contemplating the dhamma (fourth satipathhana and 3 characteristics). Meaning the concentration that the Buddha's teachers had which was jhanas without dhamma (right view).

Srilankaputra
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 4:56 am
Sri Lankan trained Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of "nimitta" in AN 6.68
Hi DD,

Where can I find Bikkhu Bodhis translation of AN6.68
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Srilankaputra
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Location: Sri Lanka

Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat May 18, 2019 11:14 am

budo wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:00 am
Srilankaputra, I take it as concentration but without contemplating the dhamma (fourth satipathhana and 3 characteristics). Meaning the concentration that the Buddha's teachers had which was jhanas without dhamma (right view).
Hi Budo,

Can you explain again. I can't quite follow what you have written.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 18, 2019 11:36 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am
Where can I find Bikkhu Bodhis translation of AN 6.68
Amazon
sentinel wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 9:29 am
I thought attachment is the second truth !
1st noble truth: saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā. In brief, the five aggregates attached to are suffering.
Srilankaputra wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am
I don't think it refer to unwholesome state
It should be object or sign
It is "sign" but "sign" is wholesome or unwholesome in nature; so in AN 6.68, imo, it is knowing how the "signs" ("nimitta") affect the mind; both defiled & undefiled. For example:
Avoid the sign of the beautiful connected with passion.

Meditate on the Signless and get rid of the tendency to conceit. By thoroughly understanding and destroying conceit you will live in the (highest) peace."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Srilankaputra
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat May 18, 2019 11:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:36 am
Srilankaputra wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am
Where can I find Bikkhu Bodhis translation of AN 6.68
Amazon
Thanks. I guess you have the book. How has Ven BB translated the part I have highlighted. If you don't mind can you transcribe that part.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 18, 2019 11:52 am

:reading:
Attachments
AN 6 68.jpg
an 6 68 note.jpg
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Srilankaputra
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat May 18, 2019 12:10 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:52 am
:reading:
Thank you! Much merit! :smile:
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

budo
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by budo » Sat May 18, 2019 1:31 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:14 am
budo wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:00 am
Srilankaputra, I take it as concentration but without contemplating the dhamma (fourth satipathhana and 3 characteristics). Meaning the concentration that the Buddha's teachers had which was jhanas without dhamma (right view).
Hi Budo,

Can you explain again. I can't quite follow what you have written.
You wrote
Without learning the patterns of the mind, it’s impossible to fulfill right view.
‘Cittassa nimittaṃ agaṇhanto sammādiṭṭhiṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.
This is referring to attaining jhana but not having contemplated the dhamma yet (fourth satipatthana).

One understands the patterns of their mind enough to attain concentration (up to third satipatthana), but it's not Right Concentration yet because they haven't fulfilled the first Bojjanga yet, which is Sati.

Sati bojjanga is only fulfilled when the dhamma (fourth satipatthana) is contemplated.
“Monks, those monks who are accomplished in virtue, accomplished in concentration, accomplished in wisdom, accomplished in liberation, accomplished in the knowledge and vision of liberation: even the sight of those monks is helpful, I say; even listening to them ... even approaching them ... even attending on them ... even recollecting them ... even going forth after them is helpful, I say. For what reason? Because when one has heard the dhamma from such monks one dwells withdrawn by way of two kinds of withdrawal -withdrawal of body and withdrawal of mind.

Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects that dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, monks, a monk dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness (Sati) is aroused by the monk; on that occasion the monk develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfillment by development in the monk.”
- SN 46.3

Once he directs that jhana to contemplating the dhamma, the enlightenment factor of Sati arises, once Sati arises the other enlightenment factors arise (discernment, etc..), and he fulfills right view.

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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat May 18, 2019 2:31 pm

budo wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:31 pm
Thank you!
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Dan74-MkII
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by Dan74-MkII » Sat May 18, 2019 6:57 pm

Hi Srilankaputra :hello:

Great sutta, thank you for posting it. :bow: :bow: :bow:

I don't see anything highlighted on my screen. My general take is that the cultivation requires serious periods of solitude. Without it, sustained practice is either impossible or at least very hard. The sutta makes it sound impossible and categorical, which seems a bit too strong to me, TBH, but what do I know. :shrug:

As for patterns of the mind, this to me seems to be an excellent phrase. In cultivation, it is imperative, IMO, to be familiar with patterns of our mind, the narratives we spin, the habits, the arisings, the roles, all of it. Only through shining light on the entire circus does it lose its grip over us. This is the coalface of practice, IME.
_/|\_

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Sam Vara
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Re: How would you interpret this sutta? AN6.68

Post by Sam Vara » Sat May 18, 2019 7:37 pm

I think the passage you have highlighted has some potential for ambiguity, so I would personally keep quite an open mind about its exact meaning. Nimitta is a fairly vague term which is sometimes translated as "foundation of meditation". (See, for example, MN 20):

https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/sujato

In SN 47.8, it is the term used to describe what we know when we "read" or intuit the disposition of the mind, specifically as regards meditation:

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.8/en/sujato

The term gaṇhāti can also have a wide range of meanings: seize, take hold of, accept, apprehend, etc., so it's possible that the phrase means something like "without seizing/apprehending/etc. a meditation object", then Right View "is not found" (i.e. is not possible).

Of course, there might be a far more precise meaning which currently escapes me.

Either way, I echo the gratitude of Dan74-MkII on this. A lovely sutta.

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