Secular Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 5:41 am

bridif1 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:30 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:09 am
A hypothesis can be confirmed as being certain and true in rare circumstances and so becomes a fact. The spherical Earth hypothesis being one of them.

I don’t say that rebirth and kamma post death is certain and true, but I have confidence that such things exist. I will only say it’s true when I know for myself.

That would be a false interpretation.
Hi Saddha!

What does it mean to have confidence in the existence of something?

It means that you 'believe' its existence is real/true?

Is this "belief" part of the Path?
If so, how does that "belief" helps to cultivate and develop the Path?

Kind regards!

It means I take it as a working hypothesis, as something I take to be potentially true and so I orient my life around (akin to how I orient my life around Nibbana) yet I don’t say it is true and certain, everything else is worthless. It means I accept I could be wrong and that I won’t declare otherwise until I know for myself since to do so is to overreach and to lie.

Saddha (faith) is a vital spiritual quality. It is faith that starts us upon the path and sustains us through until we know for ourselves, but said faith isn’t blind. As I said, it’s not a declaration that “this is true”. It is “i trust the Buddha but I don’t know yet so it could be false”.


“"And what is the individual who is a conviction-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But he has a [sufficient] measure of conviction in & love for the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.[10]

"Now, monks, there hasn't been that conviction, there hasn't been that visiting, there hasn't been that growing close ... that lending ear ... that hearing of the Dhamma ... that remembering ... that penetration of the meaning of the teachings ... that agreement through pondering the teachings ... that desire ... that willingness ... that contemplation ... that exertion. You have lost the way, monks. You have gone the wrong way, monks. How far have you strayed, foolish men, from this Dhamma & Discipline!”

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 5:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:41 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
I make as many claims about the Buddha as you do.
I think my claims are educated or researched. My two examples of "upapajjati" obviously had you stumped.
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
The Ven. can quibble with the term of “something”...
Sorry but the Ven appeared to correctly say "upapajjati" does not literally mean "rebirth". MN 148 appears to strongly support the Ven.
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
There is of course jati of self in each moment in this life. Post death:
Sorry but the suttas appear to definitely say "jati" happens before "death" rather than after "death". Refer to SN 12.2.
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
“"Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."
This translation by Thanissaro is questionable and I imagine done when he was a young monk.
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
Change “ endless rebirth” to “endless jati” and it seems your whole objection collapses into oblivion.
Sorry but Buddhadasa has thousands of times explained his views on "jati". I recommend to avoid misrepresenting him. There are many monks you can take refuge in, such as Ajahn Brahm, Sujato, Brahmali, Bhikkhu Bodhi, etc.


You don’t need to apologise so much for so many mistakes.

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bridif1
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by bridif1 » Wed May 15, 2019 5:51 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:41 am
It means I take it as a working hypothesis, as something I take to be potentially true and so I orient my life around (akin to how I orient my life around Nibbana) yet I don’t say it is true and certain, everything else is worthless. It means I accept I could be wrong and that I won’t declare otherwise until I know for myself since to do so is to overreach and to lie.

Saddha (faith) is a vital spiritual quality. It is faith that starts us upon the path and sustains us through until we know for ourselves, but said faith isn’t blind. As I said, it’s not a declaration that “this is true”. It is “i trust the Buddha but I don’t know yet so it could be false”.
Thanks for the answer!

And this conviction is in the reality of rebirth with an uncertainty in the exact meaning and uses of the word 'rebirth'?

Or is it in the reality of rebirth and in its interpretation as both a process in this very life and post-mortem as well?

And how did you determine how to interpret the term "rebirth" to put your faith in that reading in particular?

Kind regards!

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 6:01 am

bridif1

And this conviction is in the reality of rebirth with an uncertainty in the exact meaning and uses of the word 'rebirth'?

Or is it in the reality of rebirth and in its interpretation as both a process in this very life and post-mortem as well?
A conviction that post physical death this process of paṭiccasamuppāda will carry on. In other words, the process of grasping and birthing “I am” will carry on.

And how did you determine how to interpret the term "rebirth" to put your faith in that reading in particular?
The Buddha taught that paṭiccasamuppāda happens in every moment and that said process, conditioned by kamma, continues post physical death.

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bridif1
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by bridif1 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:28 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:01 am
The Buddha taught that paṭiccasamuppāda happens in every moment and that said process, conditioned by kamma, continues post physical death.
This last bít is the one I'm questioning.
As DooDoot has shown, the interpretation of rebirth is not indisputable in favor of post-mortem continuation of mind tendencies.

Kind regards!

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 6:36 am

bridif1 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:28 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:01 am
The Buddha taught that paṭiccasamuppāda happens in every moment and that said process, conditioned by kamma, continues post physical death.
This last bít is the one I'm questioning.
As DooDoot has shown, the interpretation of rebirth is not indisputable in favor of post-mortem continuation of mind tendencies.

Kind regards!

DooDoot clings to translations which essentially means the same thing whilst ignoring the vast amount of suttas which discuss kamma and rebirth post death. What do you think mundane right view is? Did the Buddha limit Kamma to one life?

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 7:13 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:36 am
vast amount of suttas which discuss kamma and rebirth post death. What do you think mundane right view is?
In the suttas, it appears Arahants do not "die" therefore what appears to be a "materialistic" view of "death" ("marana") above is not commonly found in the suttas. Thus, returning to topic, it appears Secular Buddhists also believe "death" in the suttas refers to "physical death". Secular Buddhists, while not believing, share the same interpretation as those Ven. Buddhadasa referred to below:
People language is used by the ordinary people who don't
understand Dhamma very well and by those worldly people who are so
dense that they are blind to everything but material things.

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... ORELIG.HTM
About "death", Ven. Buddhadasa taught:
Now let's consider the word "death". Death in everyday language means that event which necessitates putting something in a coffin and cremating or burying it. But in Dhamma language, the word "death" refers to the [painful; traumatic] cessation of the idea mentioned just a moment ago, the idea of "I" or "me". The ceasing of this idea is what is meant by "death'' in Dhamma language.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books5/Bhik ... nguage.htm
:alien:



Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:36 am
Did the Buddha limit Kamma to one life?
Again, I don't recall many suttas that literally refer to past & future lives; apart from a few that appear to contain the language of later teachings. For example, what is commonly although inaccurately translated as "past lives" in the suttas is explained in SN 22.79; which does not appear to be about literal past lives. Again, I have never meet a Secular Buddhist interested in this. Note: I first read SN 22.79 from Ajahn Buddhadasa. I will try to find his translation & comments
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 7:23 am

DooDoot

In the suttas, it appears Arahants do not "die"
therefore what appears to be a "materialistic" view of "death" ("marana") above is not commonly found in the suttas.
As you well know the Buddha referred to people being in X existence after physical death, or said that y people would end up in x destination post death. He also says that not all kamma is realised within this life. Ven. Buddhadasa agrees:


“"Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 7:25 am


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Aloka
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Aloka » Wed May 15, 2019 7:43 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:25 am
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi

This refers to past lives.
from the sutta:
When, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is thus liberated in mind, the devas together with Indra, Brahma, and Pajapati pay homage to him from afar:
So do you believe in the actual existence of devas, Indra, Brahma, Pajapati,etc, Craig?.....and if so, where can they be found so that one could have a chat to them?

.

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 7:46 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:25 am
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi

This refers to past lives.
It doesn't. It does not mention "lives" at all.

Regardless, Ven Buddhadasa, says of it:
[Tan Ajarn Buddhadasa's comment: Students should note that this sense of
pubbenivasanusattinyana isn’t in conflict with the Great Standards of the
Mahaparinibbana Sutta (sutte osaretabbam vinaye sandassetabbam), and has none of
the hints of sassataditthi (eternalism) that appear in the usual explanations of the
Three Vijja. Please ponder this with especial care.]

http://www.noblepath.info/buddhist_arti ... nkhara.pdf
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 7:50 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:23 am
As you well know the Buddha referred to people being in X existence after physical death, or said that y people would end up in x destination post death. He also says that not all kamma is realised within this life.
No evidence the Buddha spoke any of these suttas or commented upon after the ending of life. Regardless, my irrefutable point was "death" does not always mean "physical death" in the suttas.
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:23 am
Ven. Buddhadasa agrees:

“"Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."
Sorry. But nothing in the translation can be deemed to be an accurate reflection of Buddhadasa's words from 1961. Take care. Buddhadasa taught the precepts are happiness in this world. It is obvious you have now become an "outsider" to the Buddhadasa Group. Why cling to the old monk?

Since the following talk was also given in 1961, it appears Buddhadasa taught contradictory things that year:
The Buddha refused to have any dealing with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there. is rebirth. What is reborn? How is it reborn? What is its kammic inheritance [3] ? These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha. That being so they are not Buddhist teaching and they are not connected with it. They do not lie in the sphere of Buddhism. Also, the one who asks about such matters has no choice but to indis­criminately believe the answer he's given, because the one who answers is not going to be able to produce any proofs, he's just going to speak according to his memory and feeling. The listener can't see for himself and so has to blindly believe "the other's words. Little by little the matter strays from Dhamma until it's something else altogether, unconnected with the extinction of Dukkha.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Bhikk ... o_Tree.htm
:focus: Buddhadasa was not a Secular Buddhist
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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cappuccino
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Wed May 15, 2019 2:12 pm

Aloka wrote: So do you believe in the actual existence of devas, Indra, Brahma, Pajapati, etc ? … and if so, where can they be found so that one could have a chat to them?
they're found in the Buddha's words

budo
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by budo » Wed May 15, 2019 2:18 pm

Aloka wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:43 am


So do you believe in the actual existence of devas, Indra, Brahma, Pajapati,etc, Craig?.....and if so, where can they be found so that one could have a chat to them?

.


The president of the US exists, good luck getting to him though, it's not easy to have a chat with him. Same with the pope, or the queen of England. Good luck getting access to them.

You can meet devas, just have to go to them first. They have no reason to go to you though, unless they know you from before.

Would you purposely initiate a conversation with a random poor person in a third world country? What about some random highway fruit stand seller in rural Bolivia?
Last edited by budo on Wed May 15, 2019 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Wed May 15, 2019 2:20 pm

I encountered Zeus …

he came in a storm and judged the City where I live

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