Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

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budo
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Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by budo » Sat May 04, 2019 1:22 pm

Would a full sotapanna (sotapanna phala) kill a mosquito?

Sotapannas have perfect virtue and ethics, but then there's this sutta:
“There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules. With the ending of (the first) three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening.
- AN 3.87

If not, would a sotapanna magga (hasn't seen dependent origination directly yet) kill a mosquito?

Is killing a human being and a mosquito the same for a sotapanna? Are they both considered violations of greater training rules?

edit: and another sutta

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
- AN 3.99

budo
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by budo » Sat May 04, 2019 2:23 pm

To expand further, some suttas say what it's impossible for an Ariya to do, for example it's impossible for an Arahant to kill at all (AN 9.7), but MN 115 suggests that a person with Right View (sotapanna) cannot kill his parents nor a Buddha:
3. “He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could deprive his mother of life ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that an ordinary person might deprive his mother of life ― there is such a possibility.’ He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could deprive his father of life...could deprive an arahant of life ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that an ordinary person might deprive his father of life...could deprive an arahant of life ― there is such a possibility.’ He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could, with a mind of hate, shed a Tathāgata’s blood ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that an ordinary person might, with a mind of hate, shed a Tathāgata’s blood ― there is such a possibility.’ He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could cause a schism in the Sangha...could acknowledge another teacher ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that an ordinary person might cause a schism in the Sangha...might acknowledge another teacher ― there is such a possibility.’
So perhaps a Sotapanna can kill a mosquito?

santa100
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by santa100 » Sat May 04, 2019 2:51 pm

No, not intentionally. Intentionally taking life of sentient beings (whether human or non-human) breaches the first and most basic precept fundamental to the training of not only Sotapannas but also for those who observe the Five Precepts.

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Jerafreyr
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by Jerafreyr » Sat May 04, 2019 3:24 pm

I would say no.

It is possible for them to accidently take what has not been given (a found dollar in the road) or engage in gossip.

chownah
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by chownah » Sat May 04, 2019 3:31 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 2:51 pm
No, not intentionally. Intentionally taking life of sentient beings (whether human or non-human) breaches the first and most basic precept fundamental to the training of not only Sotapannas but also for those who observe the Five Precepts.
Can you bring a reference where the term "sentient being" is used with reference to the five precepts?
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cappuccino
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by cappuccino » Sat May 04, 2019 3:33 pm

he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself
:quote:

santa100
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by santa100 » Sat May 04, 2019 4:33 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 3:31 pm
Can you bring a reference where the term "sentient being" is used with reference to the five precepts?
chownah
That's a given too obvious to be spelled out explicitly. Otherwise the precept would have to spell out that one should not kill a guy but can kill a head of cabbage.

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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by SarathW » Sat May 04, 2019 8:51 pm

Perhaps not.
However, he may try to avoid them by using repellent or move away from the situation like using mosquito nets.

Sotapanna and five precepts.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14256&hilit=
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form
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by form » Sat May 04, 2019 9:08 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:51 pm
Perhaps not.
However, he may try to avoid them by using repellent or move away from the situation like using mosquito nets.

Sotapanna and five precepts.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14256&hilit=
If the house is infested with pest like termites or hiding mice I will expect any modern person will be using traps or poisons. Even engaging a pest control service will be ordering to kill.

SarathW
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by SarathW » Sat May 04, 2019 9:21 pm

form wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:08 pm
SarathW wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:51 pm
Perhaps not.
However, he may try to avoid them by using repellent or move away from the situation like using mosquito nets.

Sotapanna and five precepts.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14256&hilit=
If the house is infested with pest like termites or hiding mice I will expect any modern person will be using traps or poisons. Even engaging a pest control service will be ordering to kill.
Agree.
But s/he is not a Sotapanna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 04, 2019 10:06 pm

budo wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 1:22 pm
a sotapanna magga (hasn't seen dependent origination directly yet)
Sounds like sotapanna-lite.
chownah wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 3:31 pm
Can you bring a reference where the term "sentient being" is used with reference to the five precepts?
Possibly, here. The 1st precept in Theravada uses the word "life" or "pāṇa" ("breath"; "breathing life forms").
budo wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 1:22 pm
With reference to the lesser and minor training rules... I have not declared that to be a disqualification.... the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life
Possibly the terms above need to 1st be defined. VBB's footnote 522 says: "Manorathapurani (Commentary) says: Apart from the four parajikas (offenses entailing expulsion), all the rest are lesser and minor". This appears to support the reference to "disqualification" and support the view that a sotapanna can kill a mosquito. .
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by DNS » Sun May 05, 2019 3:16 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:06 pm
Possibly the terms above need to 1st be defined. VBB's footnote 522 says: "Manorathapurani (Commentary) says: Apart from the four parajikas (offenses entailing expulsion), all the rest are lesser and minor". This appears to support the reference to "disqualification" and support the view that a sotapanna can kill a mosquito. .
It is certainly not good to kill any living being, even an insect. However, the teachings do seem to suggest that "size matters." For example, the Vinaya considers the murder of a human so serious as to require permanent expulsion from the Sangha (Parajika 3), while killing an animal is a far less serious offence (Pacittiya 62), on a par with insulting someone, idle chatter and having a non-regulation size sitting mat.

And then large "royal" type animals (elephants, lions, tigers) are not allowed for meat consumption to a monk, even if offered into the bowl.

chownah
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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by chownah » Sun May 05, 2019 3:19 am

santa100 wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 4:33 pm
chownah wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 3:31 pm
Can you bring a reference where the term "sentient being" is used with reference to the five precepts?
chownah
That's a given too obvious to be spelled out explicitly. Otherwise the precept would have to spell out that one should not kill a guy but can kill a head of cabbage.
I think that your "that's a given" really means that it is your own interpretation. No need to try to dignify your interpretation by calling it a "given"......just admit that it is your own interpretation.

I don't think the term sentient is used anywhere in the suttas but I would be glad to be found to be wrong.
chownah

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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by chownah » Sun May 05, 2019 3:26 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:06 pm
chownah wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 3:31 pm
Can you bring a reference where the term "sentient being" is used with reference to the five precepts?
Possibly, here. The 1st precept in Theravada uses the word "life" or "pāṇa" ("breath"; "breathing life forms").
JUst to clarify for anyone who might misunderstand. The link is to a mahayana forum so from the theravada perspective (here in this place to discuss things from a theravada perspective) there is no mention of "sentient being" in reference to the five precepts.....or anything else as far as I have been able to determine.

I guess, in theravada discussion it is best to either not mention "sentient beings" or to be clear to define what one means when using it in the hopes that your definition will have some meaning derived from the suttas.
chownah

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Re: Would a sotapanna kill a mosquito?

Post by cookiemonster » Sun May 05, 2019 3:37 am

budo wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 1:22 pm
Sotapannas have perfect virtue and ethics ...
Where is this found in the suttas?

As I understand it, sotapannas - at the very least - perfects mundane and apprehends supramundane Right View. This eliminates self-view, clinging to rites and rituals, and skeptical doubt, the three hallmarks of a sotapanna.

In AN 10.92 (Vera Sutta), it is written that the "five forms of danger & animosity are stilled" (Thanissaro) or "five dangers and threats" are "quelled" (Sujato), with one of the dangers being killing living creatures. The word for "stilled" and "quelled" is vupasantani which IMO seems to refer to suppression rather than perfected elimination. "Vupasanta" seems to be frequently paired with "citta", e.g. "vupasanta-citto" which refers to a mind controlled (suppressed, such as in jhana?) rather than a mind freed (as in the arahant).

Therefore, a sotapanna, realizing the Truth of Dhamma (Right View), begins the process of controlling his mind by suppressing the five faults associated with the five precepts. It is only the Arahant that has perfected the observation of the five precepts by completely freeing his mind.
Last edited by cookiemonster on Sun May 05, 2019 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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