Generosity as Poison

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tlxxxviii
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by tlxxxviii » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:22 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:20 am
Our feeling for beauty is a spiritual and not a sensual emotion. -Roger Scruton
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cappuccino
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by cappuccino » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:26 am

tlxxxviii wrote:
cappuccino wrote: Our feeling for beauty is a spiritual and not a sensual emotion. -Roger Scruton
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maybe, maybe not
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by salayatananirodha » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:07 am

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN3_58.html wrote:"Vaccha, whoever prevents another from giving a gift creates three obstructions, three impediments. Which three? He creates an obstruction to the merit of the giver, an obstruction to the recipient’s gains, and prior to that he undermines and harms his own self. Whoever prevents another from giving a gift creates these three obstructions, these three impediments.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

sunnat
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by sunnat » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:15 am

recipients gains... tastes of generosity, renunciation, humility, gratitude, kindness and the ephemeral use of whatever is given. Which in turn go on to benefit those the recipient comes in contact with. The experience of a moment of having enough, calm received through selflessness of another. Awakening of appreciation of the joy that arises in the giver. A wish to emulate.

pegembara
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by pegembara » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:23 am

Who says generosity has to be material? It is more than that.
The gift of the Dhamma excels all gifts; the taste of the Dhamma excels all tastes; delight in the Dhamma excels all delights. The eradication of Craving overcomes all ills.

Dhammapada
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:39 am

tlxxxviii wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:22 am
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:20 am
Our feeling for beauty is a spiritual and not a sensual emotion. -Roger Scruton
Is this a bot account?
We are all bots here, and cappucino is our leader.

You are the only human left.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

binocular
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by binocular » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:10 am

tlxxxviii wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:00 pm
Reading Mahasi Sayadaw this morning, and came across this:
"For example, if a generous person obtains something precious and valuable, his first thought is to offer it to someone else rather than to use it for his own pleasure."
I think this is taken out of context.

If one appreciates someone, of course one wishes them well, and gives them appropriate gifts.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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tlxxxviii
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by tlxxxviii » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:54 am

binocular wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:10 am
If one appreciates someone, of course one wishes them well, and gives them appropriate gifts.
There are plenty of socio-economic / genetic reasons to be "generous," sure. Building confederations, hoarding reciprocity-IOUs for times of famine, heightening one's status, &c. So "of course" one wants to be generous in the same way that "of course" men want to have sex with as many 18-year-olds as possible.

I'm asking what it has to do with the praxis of achieving deathlessness.

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seeker242
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by seeker242 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:04 pm

tlxxxviii wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:42 pm
If something is precious, and preciousness gives rise to greed, and greed is to be avoided, what possible sense does "generosity" make?
A starving person considers food to be precious. Does that mean if you give them food, you are poisoning them because they crave food?

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tlxxxviii
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by tlxxxviii » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:12 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:04 pm
A starving person considers food to be precious. Does that mean if you give them food, you are poisoning them because they crave food?
The original quote is quite obviously not about giving food to starving people, shelter to the homeless, or the Dhamma to knuckleheads. If you don't want to spend the time trying to think through the ramifications of why giving away an expensive gift to someone else in a Buddhist framework is potentially absurd, that's fine. But don't drop Facebook-level meme stuff here and expect a thoughtful response. Next time, just post a picture of a lotus and be done with it.

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tlxxxviii
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by tlxxxviii » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:22 pm

Image

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:23 pm

tlxxxviii wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:12 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:04 pm
A starving person considers food to be precious. Does that mean if you give them food, you are poisoning them because they crave food?
The original quote is quite obviously not about giving food to starving people, shelter to the homeless, or the Dhamma to knuckleheads. If you don't want to spend the time trying to think through the ramifications of why giving away an expensive gift to someone else in a Buddhist framework is potentially absurd, that's fine. But don't drop Facebook-level meme stuff here and expect a thoughtful response. Next time, just post a picture of a lotus and be done with it.
Ouch. Being somewhat generous with the criticism... Perhaps it is something you wish our friend seeker242 to crave?

In any case, something can be an object of craving to you, but not to others, or to you and to others, or to neither. Whether the thing is an object of craving to others is not in your control, and if it could be a necessity to another, why not give it? Their kamma is their own concern.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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tlxxxviii
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by tlxxxviii » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:25 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:23 pm
In any case, something can be an object of craving to you, but not to others, or to you and to others, or to neither. Whether the thing is an object of craving to others is not in your control, and if it could be a necessity to another, why not give it? Their kamma is their own concern.
Right. So "this is flashy trash, I don't want it, so someone else can deal with it; it's their kamma, not mine," is generosity.

See how it's problematic?

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:29 pm

tlxxxviii wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:25 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:23 pm
In any case, something can be an object of craving to you, but not to others, or to you and to others, or to neither. Whether the thing is an object of craving to others is not in your control, and if it could be a necessity to another, why not give it? Their kamma is their own concern.
Right. So "this is flashy trash, I don't want it, so someone else can deal with it; it's their kamma, not mine," is generosity.

See how it's problematic?
Of course, viewed externally, that's what it looks like. But I think the idea is that the intention motivating the generosity is the important part, not the object given.

I personally don't see how it matters though, unless you're planning to give away flashy trash to people for the purpose of corrupting their morals. I only give functional gifts, and find it rather irritating when others give me non-functional flashy trash.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

chownah
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Re: Generosity as Poison

Post by chownah » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:37 pm

tlxxxviii wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:12 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:04 pm
A starving person considers food to be precious. Does that mean if you give them food, you are poisoning them because they crave food?
The original quote is quite obviously not about giving food to starving people, shelter to the homeless, or the Dhamma to knuckleheads.
Yeah, but this one is:
tlxxxviii wrote: ... and we must feed the hungry, sick, and poor, so that they can have the future opportunity to blot themselves out for eternity.
chownah

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