Thanks uojm for your good input.uojm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:46 amOne could argue that with proper heedfulness one starts to feel less and less in control (yes there is a choice but only in so far it has already been presented as option).
Heedful is about “guarding the mind” and it could become clearer and clearer that this is something that could be done more and more, but, right now. So why would it not be possible now? Thinking about “all the time” seems legitimate but it is doing that, giving rise to hindrances, perhaps at the cost of being heedful. Another point that one might make is that one can’t be heedful while sleeping, which seems to imply being heedless, but that too would be theorizing. It can already be understood that if one dreams one can dream of what one was occupied with during the day. Then what more to say for those who had properly freed their minds? Besides, guarding guards against corruptions, it is about not (being able) acting out of greed, hatred and delusion.
And yet, it becomes obvious to the heedful that he cannot be heedful all the time.
In any case, the argument, and also the title of your post, are set up to maintain the idea that the work can’t be done, with that it is out of one’s hands, no full responsibility is accepted; one seeks shelter under the skirt of ignorance.
If you put effort in and notice you are the able to guard more and more, wouldn’t that somewhat undermine this conclusion.That heedlessness is a potential part of his being the same way as heedfulness and that this potential cannot be eliminated by effort.
If you couldn’t guard your mind, for even a little while, you wouldn’t be interested in Buddhism. If you are, you can already can see that this is about putting effort in. And the more effort you put in, as in the longer you keep guarding, the less room heedlessness gets.What can we learn from this fact, that we are vulnerable to being heedless regardless how hard we try to be heedful?
When you guard you know it. It is deliberate, known on the spot. As is the decision to engage into something because of the (some) direct expected results. It is a choice to indulge into distraction (choosing not to know).Knowing about our heedlessness can only happen in hindsight, not on the spot,
All in all I think you are over- and mis-thinking it. If you wouldn’t guard your mind you would be fully submerged following your senses. If you keep the five precepts you are then guarding already. Keep keeping them and the more refined it gets. With heedfulness faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are developed, but that doesn’t mean it is an all or nothing scenario. Development is gradual and as lay it is expected to live a lay life, that is what it is about. So don’t make it to heavy. Don’t feel guilt or fear of any enjoyment. Keep the five and it is really good already. And if you can’t, then why not start there.but what should we make of this apart from trying to be heedful? is there something to be learned from the inevitability of being heedless? of not being in control?
If you do, and more and more begin to understand that nothing bad can come from that, you ‘ll be including that in your decision making, instead of just for any profitable or pleasurable expected out-come. So one becomes less and less under influence of corruptions (you won’t just do anything for money for example, no matter how high the “reward”, so less prone to grosser corruptions already). More and more one does what is right because it is right. And it will feel right because you know it is right, not because it feels right. So, then guarding too will feel right, pleasurable. Giving in to that gives the energy (it is indulging which seems to drain energy as when you experience regret, which is why it is look at it in hindsight) to give in to more guarding and the more you get used to that the more the pleasures from negligence, heedlessness, seem a bit pale. But pleasurable or not, right is right (which again, gives pleasure). In that light you might perhaps see how right heedfulness is something that some might want to keep up more and more, it is then longer maintained at the cost of heedfulness.
So if you want to be heedful but get over-focused on this, zoom out, see if you keep the five precepts. Heedfulness is the practise. Keep it light and gentle, so it can become more fun and easier to do, so it becomes more inviting, with inviting engaging, with engaging growing, and with growing the diminishing of heedlessness.
If heedfulness is intentional then heedlessness too. Only it is often one’s normal state of mind (so to speak), so that it feels effortless. The more heedfulness becomes one’s normal state of mind then the more that becomes effortless. Perhaps this view helps a little: instead of thinking it as “putting in effort all the time” think of it as that it becomes more like a notification. Things “call” for attention and it is “doing things” that will be seen as draining, costing energy. When you heed the call you know (ignorance: not wanting to know). Perhaps this helps a little on not focussing to narrow, take it broader, more airy. And, when you spilled a bag of sugar on the table, you don’t start with cleaning every tiny sugar part, you take bigger chunks first and only the last tiny bits you can then easily wipe into your other hand, so here too, if it makes you restless just focus on the bigger stuff (keeping the five precepts; you don’t need to worry every second about not stealing for example).
Mind you (not implying you hold this view) “impermanent being unclear” is not the same as then taking it as permanent.2- Intentional actions are impermanent, but this fact is unclear to the unenlightened
Just to clarify, this is not required in order to be heedful.3- The required insight is knowing the impermanence of our intentions
This is an unjust conclusion. After all one can still keep the view that things linger on under the surface or, in another case, it could fall under the “impermanence being unclear” as in your point 2. It wouldn’t require the Buddha’s Dhamma.The fact that we cannot be heedful all the time proves that intentional actions (in this case heedfulness) are impermanent
To understand impermanence you need this information from an outside source and you need to pay proper attention, which are requirements to start the practise. When heedless you are not able to digest and give it your full attention; your mind is then already set on other things. Heedfulness is the practise, but if misunderstood best take it simple; it is, just as the five precepts, already embedded in the N8P.
I did not dispute anything from the above. I was merely exploring how being the possibility of being heedless is a main driver of being heedful.
If heedlessness is not a possibility, would training to be heedful have any value? Would it be wrong to conclude that heedfulness is an acknowledgement of heedlessness?The monk who delights in heedfulness and looks with fear at heedlessness advances like fire, burning ... He is close to Nibbana.