How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few years?

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DooDoot
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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by DooDoot » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:59 am

SilaSamadhi wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:34 pm
However, my understanding is that all your karma must be cleared prior to attaining Nibbana. The amount of dark karma incurred by murdering hundreds of people should be vast, and manifest in eons of rebirths in hell.
The suttas (eg AN 6.63) appear to say the noble eightfold path (based in the abandoning of self-view) leads to the cessation of kamma (rather than eons of rebirths in hell). While eons in hell may bring a person back to a moral foundation, it appears it cannot end kamma. It seems only the realisation of anatta can end kamma.
SilaSamadhi wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:34 pm
How could all this dark karma get cleared in just a few years, without even much suffering (the worst in the sources is some minor abuse by families of his former victims)?
I imagine, theoretically, Aṅgulimāla's mind had the strength & capacity to abide in the view of anatta. This particularly would have included the constant reflection & view that is was the element of "ignorance" rather than "myself" that was the doer of the evil murderous deeds. The Buddha would have constantly exhorted this to Aṅgulimāla, until Aṅgulimāla attained stream-entry. This said, if the story is true (rather than a legend), then Aṅgulimāla's mind would have likely experienced or re-lived visions of those past murderous deeds, including the horror & trauma on the faces of the victims; which would have been very challenging, meditatively. This said, the constant right view of anatta & dependent origination (ignorance as "the doer") theoretically could have brought Arahantship.
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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by binocular » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:34 pm

JohnK wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:28 pm
My understanding is that the results of kamma in a specific situation are complex to the point of being beyond our understanding. That being said (and at the risk of going down a rabbit hole), do recall that intention is the key. Based on the Angulimala chapter in Great Disciples of the Buddha, he was "set-up" by jealous students who convinced their teacher that his favorite student was plotting against him. To defend himself, the teacher thought he must kill Angulimala or get him killed. So the teacher told Angulimala it was his duty to provide an offeringto his teacher -- he demanded an offering of a thousand fingers -- figuring that Angulimala would himself get killed in the process or be caught and executed for his crimes.
So there is at least some complexity around his intention to kill -- the "intention behind the intention" -- I don't know how such "intentions behind intentions" fit the workings of kamma.
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/great-disciples-buddha
This changes so much!! So much!
I didn't know about this before!

This means that Angulimala was not simply yet another murderous villain who would be killing people out of sheer greed or hatred. Instead, he was a loyal disciple who went to murderous lenghts to prove his loyalty to his teacher. This changes so much!

It also means that the case of Angulimala cannot rightly be used as some kind of motivation or preaching device to the effect of "If Angulimala, who was so so bad could attain enlightenment, then so can we!"


See, this is why it is so important to read the suttas, the commentaries and other important secondary texts, in order to avoid being misled by the misinformation that is sometimes being spread in the popular Buddhist discourse, even if it is spread by well-meaning Buddhists.
Last edited by binocular on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by binocular » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:52 pm

SDC wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:59 pm
He had the wherewithal to accept the Buddha's superiority when he was unable to chase him down on the road despite how fast he ran. He took notice of something greater than his petty hate and rage and worked very hard to achieve it. That was his good action. I guess the rest was expelled when he was beat to death.
But he wasn't acting in petty hate and rage!
He wanted to prove his loyalty to his teacher.

Proving one's loyalty to someone by committing murder at their request is not unheard of. It's a common practice in some gangs or in the mafia, for example. We'd have to look into the history of the social phenomenon of committing murder out of loyalty to know more. Although I imagine it was not unheard of back then, either. Just take the famous example of Abraham being ready to kill his son Isaac in order to prove his loyalty to God.


It seems to me that the point of Angulimala's story is something quite different than what one can hear in popular Buddhist discourse.
I imagine it doesn't actually have so much to do with the problem of blindly following one's teacher, but more with the idea that one should be willing to abandon one's previous teacher if a new one, more excellent one appears. And also, that a teacher has a responsibility toward his students, in the sense that he actually shows the students how excellent a teacher he is. The way the Buddha showed his excellence to Angulimala by always outrunning him.

Which is in stark contrast to teachers who just sit on their thrones and expect to be adored.
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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by alfa » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:09 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:34 pm
JohnK wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:28 pm
My understanding is that the results of kamma in a specific situation are complex to the point of being beyond our understanding. That being said (and at the risk of going down a rabbit hole), do recall that intention is the key. Based on the Angulimala chapter in Great Disciples of the Buddha, he was "set-up" by jealous students who convinced their teacher that his favorite student was plotting against him. To defend himself, the teacher thought he must kill Angulimala or get him killed. So the teacher told Angulimala it was his duty to provide an offeringto his teacher -- he demanded an offering of a thousand fingers -- figuring that Angulimala would himself get killed in the process or be caught and executed for his crimes.
So there is at least some complexity around his intention to kill -- the "intention behind the intention" -- I don't know how such "intentions behind intentions" fit the workings of kamma.
https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/great-disciples-buddha
This changes so much!! So much!
I didn't know about this before!

This means that Angulimala was not simply yet another murderous villain who would be killing people out of sheer greed or hatred. Instead, he was a loyal disciple who went to murderous lenghts to prove his loyalty to his teacher. This changes so much!

It also means that the case of Angulimala cannot rightly be used as some kind of motivation or preaching device to the effect of "If Angulimala, who was so so bad could attain enlightenment, then so can we!"


See, this is why it is so important to read the suttas, the commentaries and other important secondary texts, in order to avoid being misled by the misinformation that is sometimes being spread in the popular Buddhist discourse, even if it is spread by well-meaning Buddhists.
How does this change anything? Anguli was the Dexter Morgan of those times, a serial killer. So questions remain on how such vast karma can be exhausted.

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by cappuccino » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:58 pm

one sinks from the weight of impurity

enlightenment is total purity

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by chownah » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:06 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:52 pm

Proving one's loyalty to someone by committing murder at their request is not unheard of. It's a common practice in some gangs or in the mafia, for example.
Not to mention the biggest accumulation of all........THE MILITARY!
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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:16 pm

Angulimala is also a great example of how wrong we can go if we blindly follow a religious teacher or cult. Surely the way to stop following or to “exhaust” karma is simply to stop. Then we can catch Buddha who has already stopped!

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by form » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:31 pm

Some classified this sutta as a fake sutta. That can be one possibility.

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by Virgo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:55 pm

SilaSamadhi wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:34 pm


How could all this dark karma get cleared in just a few years, without even much suffering (the worst in the sources is some minor abuse by families of his former victims)?
It didn't get cleared. The vipāka never had the opportunity to manifest since he attained parinibbāna first.

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by Zom » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:26 am

How could all this dark karma get cleared in just a few years, without even much suffering (the worst in the sources is some minor abuse by families of his former victims)?
There is a sutta explaining that - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It didn't get cleared. The vipāka never had the opportunity to manifest since he attained parinibbāna first.
It got cleared. Buddha confirmed that in this very Angulimala sutta. Plus to that, Buddha says that all kamma must end if one wants to reach the end of suffering - AN 10.219. https://suttacentral.net/an10.219/en/bodhi

There is a perfect logic behind such statement. Kamma is a personal samsaric process. To end samsara one must end this process (or, better to say, the process must be terminated when one leaves samsara).

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by Virgo » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:00 am

Zom wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:26 am
To end samsara one must end this process (or, better to say, the process must be terminated when one leaves samsara).
Yeah, by attaining parinibbana.
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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by samsarictravelling » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:05 am

SilaSamadhi wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:34 pm
Aṅgulimāla is told to have murdered hundreds of people in his lifetime, yet after encountering Sakyamuni Buddha, he becomes a follower and a monk, and the Buddha states that he attained Nibbana upon his death shortly after.

However, my understanding is that all your karma must be cleared prior to attaining Nibbana. The amount of dark karma incurred by murdering hundreds of people should be vast, and manifest in eons of rebirths in hell.

How could all this dark karma get cleared in just a few years, without even much suffering (the worst in the sources is some minor abuse by families of his former victims)?
My opinion (how much truth in it (hopefully bascally true), you must ask around/search to confirm (or correct anything, if I am wrong in any way or ways):

Question:
However, my understanding is that all your karma must be cleared prior to attaining Nibbana.
My answer: Not true. Because you have so much kamma from so many lives, that would be an impossibility (impossibility of clearing all your kamma). The attainment of Nibbana (Streamwinner's Nibbana/Enlightenment, Once-Returner's Nibbana/Enligtenment, etc) does not require clearing all your kamma. Instead, the attainment of Nibbana requires you to have the right condition for it -- I guess you have to have the right kamma for Nibbana/Enlightenment. The Buddha knew if you had the right condition in you, or not, for attaining Nibbana. If you met with the Buddha, he would know what to teach you to make you become more spiritual (if you were saveable in any way at all???) That means more wiser, if not Streamwinnership, Once-returnership, Non-returnership, and even Arahantship.

Question:
How could all this dark karma get cleared in just a few years, without even much suffering (the worst in the sources is some minor abuse by families of his former victims)?
My answer: The Buddha is Enlightened to the highest degree any sentient being could ever hope -- the Buddha Enlightenment. He can see if there is any quality in you that would allow you to attain Enlightenment (Streamwinner, etc). That quality overrides any bad kamma, because the Buddha knows the workings of kamma, and knows that quality would override the bad kamma. It is a knowledge that is not common. It's supernatural knowledge.

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by Lankamed » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:53 am

Lonaphala Sutta: The Salt Crystal

"There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable.[1] A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by ToVincent » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:58 am

Transcending of kamma:
“Then a disciple has full confidence in that teacher. He reflects thus: ‘In many ways the Blessed One criticizes and censures the destruction of life, and he says: “Abstain from the destruction of life.” Now I have destroyed life to such and such an extent. That wasn’t proper; that wasn’t good. But though I feel regret over this, that evil deed of mine cannot be undone.’ Having reflected thus, he abandons the destruction of life and he abstains from the destruction of life in the future. Thus there comes about the abandoning of that evil deed; thus there comes about the transcending ( samatikkamo ) of that evil deed.

Pali:
Saṃ+atikkama
Atikkama, [Sk.atikrama]
- going over or further, passing beyond.
- fig.overcoming of, overstepping.

Sanskrit:
अतिक्रम atikrama [act. atikram] n.
- passing over , overstepping (no pre-Buddhist references)
- overcoming , surpassing , conquering (no pre-Buddhist references)

अतिक्रम् atikram [ati-kram] v.
- to step or go beyond or over (RV.)
“Then, headman, that noble disciple—who is thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unconfused, clearly comprehending, ever mindful—dwells pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with lovingkindness, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he dwells pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with lovingkindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch blower can easily send his signal to the four quarters, so too, when the liberation of mind by lovingkindness is developed and cultivated in this way, any limited (pamāṇakataṃ) kamma that was done does not remain there, does not persist there.

Note:

Pali:
------------
pamāṇa-kata

Pamāṇa
[of pa+mā - Vedic pramāṇa]

Kata
[pp.of karoti]
- done, made.


Sanskrit:
--------------
pramāṇa [act. pramā]

प्रमा pramā [ pra-√ mā ]
- to measure AV. ŚrS. MBh.
- to form , create , arrange RV. MBh.

√ मा mā - pp. (mita)
- to measure , mete out , mark off RV
- to prepare , arrange , fashion , form , build , make RV.
- to show , display , exhibit RV.
- to cause to be measured or built , measure , build , erect Up. GṛS. MBh.

-------

Cf. Nimitta (ni-mitta = नि ni + pp. √ मा mā)
Lit. what is built and caused to be measured with (mitta) down (ni). [viz. what is displayed after the descent (avakkanti) from Nāmarūpa].
Like a sacrificial post is the nimitta of the sacrifice (not the sacrifice's rationale itself).

. Kamma: https://justpaste.it/p6bt
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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