The Dhamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

In your view the Dhamma subscribes to

Idealism
0
No votes
Materialism
1
6%
Dualism
2
13%
Neither
13
81%
 
Total votes: 16

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DNS
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by DNS »

sentinel wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:46 am
DNS wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:13 am Neither.
Idealism / mind-only is found in some Mahayana schools, possibly Yogachara, but not Theravada.
By definition or in reality ? It seems some Theravada monks does favour mind only .
For the mind-only viewpoint, it is the only reality. Yes, there are some Theravadins who have views similar to this. There are overlaps in views between some Theravadins and Mahayanists.

Another way to ask this question is: when you look at the moon and then turn away, does the moon still exist?

The Buddha said:

Everything exists: That is one extreme. Everything doesn't exist: That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications . . . (continues with Dependent Orgination formula). (Samyutta Nikaya 12.15)
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:41 am Howbout Nominalism?
"Name has conquered everything,
There is nothing greater than name,
All have gone under the sway
Of this one thing called name."
The above appears to be quoted out of context. There are three consecutive suttas related to the above phrase. The 1st is about nama, the 2nd is about citta and the 3rd is about craving.
Name has weighed down [oppresses - Sujato] everything;
Nothing is more extensive than name.
Name is the one thing that has
All under its control.

Nāmaṃ sabbaṃ addhabhavi,
nāmā bhiyyo na vijjati;
Nāmassa ekadhammassa,
sabbeva vasamanvagū”ti

The world is led around by mind;
By mind it’s dragged here and there.
Mind is the one thing that has
All under its control.

Cittena nīyati loko,
cittena parikassati;
Cittassa ekadhammassa,
sabbeva vasamanvagū”ti.

The world is led around by craving;
By craving it‘s dragged here and there.
Craving is the one thing that has
All under its control.

Taṇhāya nīyati loko,
taṇhāya parikassati;
Taṇhāya ekadhammassa,
sabbeva vasamanvagū”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn1.61/en/bodhi
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.62/en/bodhi
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.63/en/bodhi
Regardless, does "nāma" above really mean "name"? :shrug: How does "name" conquer, weigh down or oppress everything, as the above translators appear to claim? :shrug: Possibly the meaning of the above verse should be examined with yonisomanasikara before posting it? :shrug: Why would an obscure verse, spoken to Devas, represent or characterize the entire Buddha-Dhamma? :shrug:

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Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree
namati - nam + a
pr. 3 sg.
bends; bows; inclines; turns towards

https://suttacentral.net/define/namati
MN 19 wrote:Whatever a mendicant frequently thinks about and considers becomes their heart’s inclination.

Yaññadeva, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicāreti, tathā tathā nati hoti cetaso.

If they often think about and consider thoughts of renunciation, they’ve given up sensual thought to cultivate the thought of renunciation. Their mind inclines to thoughts of renunciation.

Nekkhammavitakkañce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicāreti, pahāsi kāmavitakkaṃ, nekkhammavitakkaṃ bahulamakāsi, tassaṃ taṃ nekkhammavitakkāya cittaṃ namati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/sujato
Snp 5.19 wrote:My confidence, happiness, mind, and mindfulness,
do not depart [incline] from (nāpentime) Gotama’s teaching.
Whatever direction the One of Great Wisdom goes to
it is that very place that I am inclined (natohamasmi).

https://suttacentral.net/snp5.19/en/anandajoti
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Dhamma

Post by Pseudobabble »

If the Dhamma is dualistic, it is epistemological dualism only: there are things one can speak of, and there is Nibbana. The Buddha explicitly avoided such philosophical categorisations as unlikely to lead to the goal.

In any case, why does it matter? The Dhamma is a raft remember, to be discarded upon reaching the Far Shore. The conceptual structure we call the Dhamma is useful only insofar as it guides a practice which results in Nibbana.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by Pseudobabble »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:18 am Regardless, does "nāma" above really mean "name"? :shrug: How does "name" conquer, weigh down or oppress everything, as the above translators appear to claim? :shrug: Possibly the meaning of the above verse should be examined with yonisomanasikara before posting it? :shrug: Why would an obscure verse, spoken to Devas, represent or characterize the entire Buddha-Dhamma? :shrug:
Language, the giving and using of names, confuses people into thinking that the names are the reality. We create the name 'myself', and then use it as though it were real, as a term in a grammatical calculus in opposition to the name 'the world'.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by binocular »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:18 amRegardless, does "nāma" above really mean "name"?
How does "name" conquer, weigh down or oppress everything, as the above translators appear to claim?
Such is the power of words.

Think of racism, nationalism, or pretty much any other ism.


From Wilde's "Picture of Dorian Gray":
"Just turn your head a little more to the right, Dorian, like a good boy," said the painter, deep in his work and conscious only that a look had come into the lad's face that he had never seen there before.

"And yet," continued Lord Henry, in his low, musical voice, and with that graceful wave of the hand that was always so characteristic of him, and that he had even in his Eton days, "I believe that if one man were to live out his life fully and completely, were to give form to every feeling, expression to every thought, reality to every dream—I believe that the world would gain such a fresh impulse of joy that we would forget all the maladies of mediaevalism, and return to the Hellenic ideal—to something finer, richer than the Hellenic ideal, it may be. But the bravest man amongst us is afraid of himself. The mutilation of the savage has its tragic survival in the self-denial that mars our lives. We are punished for our refusals. Every impulse that we strive to strangle broods in the mind and poisons us. The body sins once, and has done with its sin, for action is a mode of purification. Nothing remains then but the recollection of a pleasure, or the luxury of a regret. The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for the things it has forbidden to itself, with desire for what its monstrous laws have made monstrous and unlawful. It has been said that the great events of the world take place in the brain. It is in the brain, and the brain only, that the great sins of the world take place also. You, Mr. Gray, you yourself, with your rose-red youth and your rose-white boyhood, you have had passions that have made you afraid, thoughts that have filled you with terror, day-dreams and sleeping dreams whose mere memory might stain your cheek with shame—"

"Stop!" faltered Dorian Gray, "stop! you bewilder me. I don't know what to say. There is some answer to you, but I cannot find it. Don't speak. Let me think. Or, rather, let me try not to think."

For nearly ten minutes he stood there, motionless, with parted lips and eyes strangely bright. He was dimly conscious that entirely fresh influences were at work within him. Yet they seemed to him to have come really from himself. The few words that Basil's friend had said to him—words spoken by chance, no doubt, and with wilful paradox in them—had touched some secret chord that had never been touched before, but that he felt was now vibrating and throbbing to curious pulses.

Music had stirred him like that. Music had troubled him many times. But music was not articulate. It was not a new world, but rather another chaos, that it created in us. Words! Mere words! How terrible they were! How clear, and vivid, and cruel! One could not escape from them. And yet what a subtle magic there was in them! They seemed to be able to give a plastic form to formless things, and to have a music of their own as sweet as that of viol or of lute. Mere words! Was there anything so real as words?

I also quoted the longer paragraph in the beginning because I think it provides the context in which the insight from the final quoted paragraph takes place. In a mind set on craving, words become immensely powerful.
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:18 am
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.61/en/bodhi


Hello doodoot and members ,

For your information ,
According to the parallel (Agama) ,
after comparison with below two texts ,
cross-referenced appears that " nama "
In text sn1.61 , was referring to the aggregates of

feeling , perception , volition and consciousness
.



https://suttacentral.net/sa1020/lzh/taisho

爾時,世尊說偈答言:

「名者映世間,  者世無上,
 唯有一名法,  能制御世間。」

時,彼天子復說偈言:

「久見婆羅門,  逮得般涅槃
 一切怖已過,  永超世恩愛。」





https://suttacentral.net/sa-2.247/lzh/taisho

爾時,世尊以偈答曰:

「於諸世物中,  四陰名最勝。
善於彼處處,  皆得為最上。
四陰名一法,  於世間自在。」

爾時,天復以偈讚言:

「往昔已曾見,  婆羅門涅槃
嫌怖久棄捨,  能度世間愛。」
Last edited by sentinel on Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:41 am Howbout Nominalism?
"Name has conquered everything,
There is nothing greater than name,
All have gone under the sway
Of this one thing called name."
from: Nibbāna –The Mind Stilled-Volume I (Sermons 1 – 5) by Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-cont ... ol_1-1.pdf


Same, too, by context:

start quote--->
It is obvious that nāma means ‘name’, and in the suttas also, nāma, when used by itself, means ‘name’. However when we come to the commentaries we find some kind of hesitation to recognize this obvious meaning. Even in the present context, the commentary, Paramatthajotikā, explains the word ‘name’ so as to mean ‘bending’. It says that all immaterial states are called nāma, in the sense that they bend towards their respective objects and also because the mind has the nature of inclination: Ārammaābhimukha namanato, cit-tassa ca natihetuto sabbampi arūpa ‘nāman’ti vuccati. 6

And this is the standard definition of nāma in Abhidhamma compendiums and commentaries. The idea of bending towards an object is brought in to explain the word nāma. It may be that they thought it too simple an interpretation to explain nāma with reference to ‘name’, particularly because it is a term that has to do with deep insight. However as far as the teachings in the suttas are concerned, nāma still has a great depth even when it is understood in the sense of ‘name’.
Nāma sabba anvabhavi,
nāmā bhiyyo na vijjati,
nāmassa ekadhammassa,
sabbeva vasamanvagū. 7
"Name has conquered everything,
There is nothing greater than name,
All have gone under the sway
Of this one thing called name."


Also there is another verse of the same type, but unfortunately its original meaning is often ignored by the present day commentators:
Akkheyyasaññino sattā,
akkheyyasmi patihitā,
akkheyya apariññāya,
yogam āyanti maccuno. 8
"Beings are conscious of what can be named,
They are established on the nameable,
By not comprehending the nameable things,
They come under the yoke of death"
.
All this shows that the word nāma has a deep significance even when it is taken in the sense of ‘name’.
<--- / end quote

from: Nibbāna –The Mind Stilled-Volume I (Sermons 1 – 5) by Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-cont ... ol_1-1.pdf
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by Srilankaputra »

Pseudobabble wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:25 am In any case, why does it matter? The Dhamma is a raft remember, to be discarded upon reaching the Far Shore. The conceptual structure we call the Dhamma is useful only insofar as it guides a practice which results in Nibbana.
Thank you!
For one who's involved
gets into disputes
over doctrines,
but how — in connection with what —
would you argue
with one uninvolved?
He has nothing
embraced or rejected,
has sloughed off every view
right here — every one.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading away, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsessions with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Whose philosophy do you approve of, nun?"

"I don't approve of anyone's philosophy, my friend."


[Mara:]
For whose sake
have you shaved your head?
You look like a contemplative
but don't approve of a philosophy,
so why are you wandering here
confused?

[Sister Sisupacala:]
Outside philosophers place
their confidence in views.
I don't approve
of their teaching.
They're not adept
in the Dhamma.
But there is
the Awakened One,
born in the Sakyan clan,
a person without peer:
all-conquering,
Mara's subduer,
everywhere undefeated,
everywhere freed, independent;
endowed with an Eye
all-seeing, reaching the end of
all kamma —
with the ending of acquisitions,
released.
He, that Blessed One,
is my teacher.
It's in his Dhamma
that I delight

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by DooDoot »

binocular wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:39 am Such is the power of words.
Sticks & stones may break my bones but words can never harm me.
Pseudobabble wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:29 amLanguage, the giving and using of names, confuses people into thinking that the names are the reality. We create the name 'myself', and then use it as though it were real, as a term in a grammatical calculus in opposition to the name 'the world'.
The process of 'selfing' or 'generating self-view' does not appear to be called 'nama' in the suttas. For example, SN 22.81 explains in detail how the 'self-assumption' is 'born' but does not even refer to 'nama'. It only refers to ignorance, contact, feeling, craving & mental fabricating.
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:49 amSame, too, by context:
I doubt bolding, copying & pasting text in large letters add anything compelling to discussion.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Dhamma

Post by Pseudobabble »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:21 pm The process of 'selfing' or 'generating self-view' does not appear to be called 'nama' in the suttas.
Perhaps not, but I think we need to use our brains, and try to make a bridge to what was said so many years ago. It is unlikely that ancient texts will deliver the truth to us exactly as it is easiest for us to understand it.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by DooDoot »

Pseudobabble wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:28 pmPerhaps not, but I think we need to use our brains, and try to make a bridge to what was said so many years ago. It is unlikely that ancient texts will deliver the truth to us exactly as it is easiest for us to understand it.
'Nama' is omitted from many suttas on Dependent Origination. It does not appear to be important.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Dhamma

Post by Pseudobabble »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:30 pm
Pseudobabble wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:28 pmPerhaps not, but I think we need to use our brains, and try to make a bridge to what was said so many years ago. It is unlikely that ancient texts will deliver the truth to us exactly as it is easiest for us to understand it.
'Nama' is omitted from many suttas on Dependent Origination. It does not appear to be important.
DD, I don't presume to tell you what is important. You can find that out for yourself, and test it in practice. What I have said is only my opinion.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by DooDoot »

Pseudobabble wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:34 pm You can find that out for yourself, and test it in practice.
I have.
Pseudobabble wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:34 pmWhat I have said is only my opinion.
Sure. But is appears unrelated to the suttas.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Dhamma

Post by binocular »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:21 pm
binocular wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:39 am Such is the power of words.
Sticks & stones may break my bones but words can never harm me.
Performativity is a complex concept that can be thought of as a language which functions as a form of social action and has the effect of change.[1] The concept has multiple applications in diverse fields such as anthropology, economics, gender studies (social construction of gender), law, linguistics, performance studies, and philosophy.

The concept is first described by philosopher of language John L. Austin when he referred to a specific capacity: the capacity of speech and communication to act or to consummate an action. Austin differentiated this from constative language, which he defined as descriptive language that can be "evaluated as true or false". Common examples of performative language are making promises, betting, performing a wedding ceremony, an umpire calling a strike, or a judge pronouncing a verdict.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performativity
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: The Dhamma

Post by Pseudobabble »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:35 pm
Pseudobabble wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:34 pm You can find that out for yourself, and test it in practice.
I have.
Pseudobabble wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:34 pmWhat I have said is only my opinion.
Sure. But is appears unrelated to the suttas.
No doubt you have DD.

If you don't mind, what is nama, and it's role, in your opinion? If you could answer without quoting anything, I would be much obliged.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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