Are all forms of Dukkha related to a sense of self?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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bridif1
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Are all forms of Dukkha related to a sense of self?

Post by bridif1 »

A few days ago I started reading books about Paticcasamuppada because I realized how little and shallow was my understanding on this capital matter.

Despite getting the gist of it, I still have problems understanding the exact details.

For instance, I understand that dukkha arises from the 3 kinds of craving (kama, bhava, vibhava), and that craving is the condition for the arising of sustenance/clinging/fuel.

I've been reading a book based on Dhamma Talks given by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (Under the Bodhi Tree) on the topic of Dependent Co-arising. There it is said that all kinds of suffering are born from clinging to "I" and "mine". Is that always the case?

If attachment and obsession is developed towards some kind of feeling, is always the idea of a self involved in that process? Couldn't be the case of some obsession to, for example, a pleasent feeling without thinking about it as "mine" or "me"? Couldn't we just attached to a past feeling on itself?

Or to put it in other words...

Is the arising of the idea/perception of self always necessary for the arising of dukkha?

I'm not sure if I'm expressing my doubts correctly.

Thanks in advance for your time and patience.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are all forms of Dukkha related to a sense of self?

Post by cappuccino »

each person is concerned about themselves

endlessly, in every possible way

if they could be free of themselves, it would be peace
santa100
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Re: Are all forms of Dukkha related to a sense of self?

Post by santa100 »

Obviously if one's transcended all the "I", "mine", or "myself", s/he'll be free from Dukkha, for there's no "self" there for Dukkha to latch onto.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are all forms of Dukkha related to a sense of self?

Post by Ceisiwr »

“I” arises because of grasping. Grasping is a condition for dukkha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: Are all forms of Dukkha related to a sense of self?

Post by SarathW »

There are three types of dukkha.
- Dukkha Dukkha
-Viparinama Dukkha
- Sankhara Dukkha

I think Buddha also experienced suffering due to pain. (back pain) I think it comes under Dukkha Dukkha
Buddha experienced bodily pain but not the mental pain.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dan74-MkII
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Re: Are all forms of Dukkha related to a sense of self?

Post by Dan74-MkII »

bridif1 wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:17 pm A few days ago I started reading books about Paticcasamuppada because I realized how little and shallow was my understanding on this capital matter.

Despite getting the gist of it, I still have problems understanding the exact details.

For instance, I understand that dukkha arises from the 3 kinds of craving (kama, bhava, vibhava), and that craving is the condition for the arising of sustenance/clinging/fuel.

I've been reading a book based on Dhamma Talks given by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (Under the Bodhi Tree) on the topic of Dependent Co-arising. There it is said that all kinds of suffering are born from clinging to "I" and "mine". Is that always the case?

If attachment and obsession is developed towards some kind of feeling, is always the idea of a self involved in that process? Couldn't be the case of some obsession to, for example, a pleasent feeling without thinking about it as "mine" or "me"? Couldn't we just attached to a past feeling on itself?

Or to put it in other words...

Is the arising of the idea/perception of self always necessary for the arising of dukkha?

I'm not sure if I'm expressing my doubts correctly.

Thanks in advance for your time and patience.
I guess even in the example you.ask about, there is a.sort of a surrogate self feeling. Like we attach to a feeling, a thought, a story, an ideology, etc and it becomes an extension of our self idea.
pegembara
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Re: Are all forms of Dukkha related to a sense of self?

Post by pegembara »

Dukkha is caused by desire or craving. It is also the craving or tanha that creates a sense of self. This is already a latent tendency in the newborn.
O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

Gahakāraka diṭṭho’si puna gehaṃ na kāhasi
Sabbā te phāsukā bhaggā gahakauṭaṃ visaṅkhitaṃ
Visaṅkhāragataṃ cittaṃ taṇhānaṃ khayamajjhagā.

– Dhammapada Verse 154
Bhava can be translated as being or existence. When there is Craving and Clinging, there is an object that is craved for, and clung to, i.e. sensual pleasures, etc. This naturally gives rise to a subject (I) that craves for and clings to the object, eg. “I must go to see the soccer match!”, “I’ll die if he does not marry me! “ Thus we see that a new born baby does not display much of an ego or self until it starts to enjoy its food or toys etc. But when it starts to crave and cling, then the ego or self becomes very evident. This ‘I’ gives rise to a living ‘being’, or we can say a ‘being’ comes into existence. Every time we crave and cling, every time we strengthen this perception of an ‘I’ or a ‘being’.
So this being that comes into existence perceives itself as a being in the sensual desire realm of existence or form realm or formless realm.

http://www.tbcm.org.my/conditioned-aris ... suffering/
"There are, Punna, forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. If a monk relishes them, welcomes them, and remains fastened to them, then in him — relishing them, welcoming them, and remaining fastened to them — there arises delight. From the origination of delight, I tell you, comes the origination of suffering and stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Aloka
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Re: Are all forms of Dukkha related to a sense of self?

Post by Aloka »

bridif1 wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:17 pm A few days ago I started reading books about Paticcasamuppada because I realized how little and shallow was my understanding on this capital matter.

Despite getting the gist of it, I still have problems understanding the exact details.
Hi bridif1,

There's a section (from page 6 onwards) in Ajahn Amaro's "Theravada Buddhism in a Nutshell" which has a sub-heading "Dependent Origination - the source code" which you might find helpful.

https://tisarana.ca/static/books/amaro_ ... tshell.pdf


:anjali:
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