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Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:49 am
by Viachh
Is Theravada compatible with patriotism: after all, in the Buddhism context, patriotism is only a kind of attachment?

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:58 am
by Ceisiwr
I consider myself a nationalist. Whilst this won’t lead to Nibbana it’s not against the 5 precepts and so it’s not against living the householder life anymore than having a wife, husband or children are.

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:04 am
by Ceisiwr
It should also be pointed out that Theravada has thrived partly because of nationalism which helped support it via the state.

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:07 am
by DooDoot
Theravada is unrelated to nationalism or patriotism; similar to how Theravada is unrelated to "heterosexualism" or "homosexualism". For example, recently, in France, the President, speaking gobbledegook propaganda against the Yellow Vests, said: "“patriotism is the exact opposite of nationalism. Nationalism is a betrayal of patriotism.”".

In the suttas, when the Buddha refers the "welfare of a nation", he ties such national welfare together with dhammic values. Thus a nation without dharma appears unBuddhist. But a nation bound together by life & social sustaining dharmic values is a Buddhist nation.
Conditions of a Nation's Welfare

4. At that time the Venerable Ananda [4] was standing behind the Blessed One, fanning him, and the Blessed One addressed the Venerable Ananda thus: "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis have frequent gatherings, and are their meetings well attended?"

"I have heard, Lord, that this is so."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis assemble and disperse peacefully and attend to their affairs in concord?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they do."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis neither enact new decrees nor abolish existing ones, but proceed in accordance with their ancient constitutions?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they do."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis show respect, honor, esteem, and veneration towards their elders and think it worthwhile to listen to them?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they do."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis refrain from abducting women and maidens of good families and from detaining them?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they refrain from doing so."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis show respect, honor, esteem, and veneration towards their shrines, both those within the city and those outside it, and do not deprive them of the due offerings as given and made to them formerly?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they do venerate their shrines, and that they do not deprive them of their offerings."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis duly protect and guard the arahats, so that those who have not come to the realm yet might do so, and those who have already come might live there in peace?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they do."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline."

5. And the Blessed One addressed the brahman Vassakara in these words: "Once, brahman, I dwelt at Vesali, at the Sarandada shrine, and there it was that I taught the Vajjis these seven conditions leading to (a nation's) welfare. [5] So long, brahman, as these endure among the Vajjis, and the Vajjis are known for it, their growth is to be expected, not their decline."

Thereupon the brahman Vassakara spoke thus to the Blessed One: "If the Vajjis, Venerable Gotama, were endowed with only one or another of these conditions leading to welfare, their growth would have to be expected, not their decline. What then of all the seven? No harm, indeed, can be done to the Vajjis in battle by Magadha's king, Ajatasattu, except through treachery or discord. Well, then, Venerable Gotama, we will take our leave, for we have much to perform, much work to do."

"Do as now seems fit to you, brahman." And the brahman Vassakara, the chief minister of Magadha, approving of the Blessed One's words and delighted by them, rose from his seat and departed.

https://accesstoinsight.org/ati/tipitak ... .vaji.html

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:10 am
by Ceisiwr
Patriotism basically = civic nationalism, which is faux nationalism.

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:11 am
by DooDoot
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:10 am
Patriotism basically = civic nationalism, which is faux nationalism.
More gobbledegook. Hitler was a nationalist. Qaddafi (PBUH) was a nationalist. A nation bent in war, imperialism or exploitation (of its own people) is not a dhammic nation.

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:14 am
by Ceisiwr
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:11 am
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:10 am
Patriotism basically = civic nationalism, which is faux nationalism.
More gobbledegook. Hitler was a nationalist.


So are the Scottish National Party. So was Ghandi. So are Plaid Cymru. I wouldn’t say either are/were comparable to Hitler. There are different strands and schools of nationalism.

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:15 am
by DooDoot
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:14 am
So are the Scottish National Party. So was Ghandi. So are Plaid Cymru. I wouldn’t say either are/were comparable to Hitler. There are different strands and schools of nationalism.
See. You debunked your own dogma. :twothumbsup:

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:16 am
by Ceisiwr
If saying it made it so.

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:22 am
by Pseudobabble
I didn’t vote yet.

Attachment to the welfare of one’s nation is an attachment, so most likely is a hinderance, ultimately.

However, I see the Dhamma as a realist’s attitude, the most realistic outlook there is, and pragmatically, nationalism/patriotism is more realistic as a basis for effective collective action than many other political alignments. So I think nationalism/patriotism is more compatible with Dhamma than an ideology which aims at economic or social utopia, thise being less realistic.

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:32 am
by Ceisiwr
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:22 am
I didn’t vote yet.

Attachment to the welfare of one’s nation is an attachment, so most likely is a hinderance, ultimately.

However, I see the Dhamma as a realist’s attitude, the most realistic outlook there is, and pragmatically, nationalism/patriotism is more realistic as a basis for effective collective action than many other political alignments. So I think nationalism/patriotism is more compatible with Dhamma than an ideology which aims at economic or social utopia, thise being less realistic.

:thumbsup:

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:57 am
by binocular
One has to take some care of the physical land one is attempting to practice in. If Buddhist lay people wouldn't protect the land, Buddhist monks would have no place to be.

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 am
by Viachh
binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:57 am
One has to take some care of the physical land one is attempting to practice in. If Buddhist lay people wouldn't protect the land, Buddhist monks would have no place to be.
Will lay people have the right to kill for the opportunity for the monks to practice?

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:24 am
by Ceisiwr
Viachh wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 am
binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:57 am
One has to take some care of the physical land one is attempting to practice in. If Buddhist lay people wouldn't protect the land, Buddhist monks would have no place to be.
Will lay people have the right to kill for the opportunity for the monks to practice?

Yes

Re: Theravada and patriotism

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:26 am
by Ceisiwr
To clarify, a battle or war should only be fought in self defence. To decline to engage in war is to potentially plunge humanity into a great darkness (Ghandi’s pacifist approach to Mussolini and Hitler). Still, war is never good kamma. It can only be mixed (just war) or black (imperialism etc).