Theravada and patriotism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Is Theravada compatible with patriotism?

Yes
4
36%
No
6
55%
Yea and nay
1
9%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 11

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:08 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:03 pm
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:02 pm
Nope, since I am dealing with householders in the world of crime, rape and war.
What you are dealing with is irrelevant.
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:03 pm
You aren’t the arbiter of Buddhism.
The teachings are the arbiter of Buddhism. The teachings do not say to perform black-white kamma.

The ideal is to practice without kamma. In reality, as laymen and lay women ...

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:14 pm

Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Just War theory is entirely in line with the Dhamma.

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Mr Man
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Mr Man » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:36 pm

Viachh wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:51 am
Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:39 am

So killing humans can be “grey” kamma?
I would say so. Life can be complicated. It all depends on the intent.
Okay, but did the Buddha teach this?

sentinel
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by sentinel » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:01 pm

Viachh wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:51 am

Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).

Where do you get this idea ? which sutra say so if you could provide reference ?
:coffee:

Viachh
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Viachh » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:09 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:01 pm
Viachh wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:51 am

Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).

Where do you get this idea ? which sutra say so if you could provide reference ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_ethics

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:10 pm

Mr Man


Okay, but did the Buddha teach this?

He said that kamma is intent, yes. He also said that some intentional action is mixed, motivated by both good and bad factors and so results in good and bad outcomes. It naturally follows that killing can be mixed, depending on the circumstance and intention. Is it recommended? No. Is it an inevitable fact of householder life? Yes.

binocular
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by binocular » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:11 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:01 pm
Viachh wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:51 am
Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).
Where do you get this idea ? which sutra say so if you could provide reference ?
The section of the Secondary Bodhisattva Vows titled "(4) Not committing a destructive action when love and compassion call for it":
Occasionally, certain extreme situations arise in which the welfare of others is seriously jeopardized and there is no alternative left to prevent a tragedy other than committing one of the seven destructive physical or verbal actions. These seven are taking a life, taking what has not been given to us, indulging in inappropriate sexual behavior, lying, speaking divisively, using harsh and cruel language, or chattering meaninglessly.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Viachh
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Viachh » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:39 pm

by Leo Tolstoy :
…the blindness in our time of the nations that extol patriotism, bring up their young generations in the superstition of patriotism, and, at the same time, do not wish for the inevitable consequence of patriotism – war – has, it seems to me, reached such a level that the simplest reflection, which begs for utterance in the mouth of every unprejudiced man, is sufficient in order that men may see the crying contradiction in which they are… I have several times had occasion to write about patriotism and about its absolute incompatibility, not only with the teaching of Christ in its ideal sense, but even with the lowest demands of morality in a Christian society… My ideas have frequently been repeated in an abbreviated form, and, instead of retorting to them, it was added that they were nothing but cosmopolitanism – as though this word “cosmopolitanism” unanswerably overthrew all my arguments.
(Tolstoy speaks about Christianity, but the same can be said about Buddhism, I think)

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Mr Man
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Mr Man » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:46 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:10 pm
Mr Man


Okay, but did the Buddha teach this?

He said that kamma is intent, yes. He also said that some intentional action is mixed, motivated by both good and bad factors and so results in good and bad outcomes. It naturally follows that killing can be mixed, depending on the circumstance and intention. Is it recommended? No. Is it an inevitable fact of householder life? Yes.
Can we try and be quite specific - Did the Buddha teach that killing humans can be “grey” kamma? Did the Buddha teach that there are some circumstances were it is okay to kill a human because it is “grey” kamma?

And killing humans is "an inevitable fact of householder life"?

sentinel
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by sentinel » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:49 pm

Viachh wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:09 pm



Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).



It seems not only Mahayana are with exception about killing , Several Pali suttas contain stories where self-euthanizing is not seen as unethical by the Buddha , showing that the issue is more complex. These exceptions, such as the story of the monk Channa and that of the monk Vakkali .
:coffee:

Viachh
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Viachh » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:57 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:49 pm
Viachh wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:09 pm



Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).



It seems not only Mahayana are with exception about killing , Several Pali suttas contain stories where self-euthanizing is not seen as unethical by the Buddha , showing that the issue is more complex. These exceptions, such as the story of the monk Channa and that of the monk Vakkali .
We are discussing murder in the context of the main theme (patriotism): what does euthanasia have to do with it?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:46 pm
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:10 pm
Mr Man


Okay, but did the Buddha teach this?

He said that kamma is intent, yes. He also said that some intentional action is mixed, motivated by both good and bad factors and so results in good and bad outcomes. It naturally follows that killing can be mixed, depending on the circumstance and intention. Is it recommended? No. Is it an inevitable fact of householder life? Yes.
Can we try and be quite specific - Did the Buddha teach that killing humans can be “grey” kamma? Did the Buddha teach that there are some circumstances were it is okay to kill a human because it is “grey” kamma?

And killing humans is "an inevitable fact of householder life"?


He did say that kamma can be grey, which means it depends upon the intent. He never said it’s ok to kill humans, but Buddha isn’t God. His word isn’t moral law. He merely states what is. We ourselves must choose. And yes, being a householder means that sometimes we will kill.

sentinel
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by sentinel » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:50 pm

Viachh wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:57 pm



Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).





We are discussing murder in the context of the main theme (patriotism): what does euthanasia have to do with it?
I don't understand killing for bodhisattvas has something to do with patriotism ?
:coffee:

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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by DNS » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:08 pm

I didn't vote yet either. It depends on how you define patriotism. For example, Sydney J. Harris has differentiated patriotism and nationalism as follows:

Patriotism is proud of a country’s virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country’s virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, “the greatest,” but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sydney_J._Harris
1982

Do you mean nationalism or patriotism? And if patriotism, how do you define patriotism?

Viachh
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Viachh » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:22 pm

Leo Tolstoy:
"Tell people that war is an evil, and they will laugh; for who does not know it? Tell them that patriotism is an evil, and most will agree; but with a reservation. "Yes," they will say, "wrong patriotism is an evil; but there is another kind, the kind we hold." But just what this good patriotism is, no one explains. If good patriotism consists in inaggressiveness, as many say, still, all patriotism, even if not aggressive, is necessarily retentive; that is, people wish to keep what they have previously conquered. The nation does not exist which was founded without conquest; and conquest can only be retained by the means which achieved it—namely, violence, murder. But if patriotism be not even retentive, it is then the restoring patriotism of conquered and oppressed nations; of Armenians, Poles, Czechs, Irish, and so on. And this patriotism is about the very worst; for it is the most embittered and the most provocative of violence.
Patriotism cannot be good. Why do not people say that egoism may be good? For this might more easily be maintained as to egoism, which is a natural and inborn feeling, than as to patriotism, which is an unnatural feeling, artificially grafted on man.
It will be said, "Patriotism has welded mankind into states, and maintains the unity of states." But men are now united in states; that work is done; why now maintain exclusive devotion to one's own state, when this produces terrible evils for all states and nations? For this same patriotism which welded mankind into states is now destroying those same states. If there were but one patriotism—say of the English only—then it were possible to regard that as conciliatory, or beneficent. But when, as now, there is American patriotism, English, German, French, Russian, all opposed one to another, in this event, patriotism no longer unites, but disunites."

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