Theravada and patriotism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Is Theravada compatible with patriotism?

Yes
4
36%
No
6
55%
Yea and nay
1
9%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 11

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Mr Man
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Mr Man »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm He did say that kamma can be grey, which means it depends upon the intent.
Do you have the reference for your quotation please clw_uk? I think that killing a human according to doctrine could never be positive. I thing possibly the quote means there is action which has both positive and negative intention and consequence. But I think, according to doctrine, killing always has negative intention and consequence for the one who performs that action.

I don't think "grey" is a good term, as to me it implies ambiguity. I think both "black and white" is slightly different.
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm He never said it’s ok to kill humans,
Okay :twothumbsup:
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm but Buddha isn’t God. His word isn’t moral law. He merely states what is. We ourselves must choose. And yes, being a householder means that sometimes we will kill.
Kill humans?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

MrMan

Do you have the reference for your quotation please clw_uk?
Sure:

““These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is black with black result; kamma that is white with white result; kamma that is black & white with black & white result; and kamma that is neither black nor white with neither black nor white result, leading to the ending of kamma.”

I think that killing a human according to doctrine could never be positive.
No, but I can be grey.
I thing possibly the quote means there is action which has both positive and negative intention and consequence. But I think, according to doctrine, killing always has negative intention and consequence for the one who performs that action.
Does it say that explicitly in the Suttas?
I don't think "grey" is a good term, as to me it implies ambiguity. I think both "black and white" is slightly different.
Ok. This is just a quibble about terminology here.
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm

Kill humans?
Yes.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Mr Man
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Mr Man »

Hi clw_uk
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:27 pm

Do you have the reference for your quotation please clw_uk?
Sure:

““These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is black with black result; kamma that is white with white result; kamma that is black & white with black & white result; and kamma that is neither black nor white with neither black nor white result, leading to the ending of kamma.”
That is the quotation not the reference. I meant which sutta.
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:27 pm
I think that killing a human according to doctrine could never be positive.
No, but I can be grey.
Do you have something to support this view?
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:27 pm
I thing possibly the quote means there is action which has both positive and negative intention and consequence. But I think, according to doctrine, killing always has negative intention and consequence for the one who performs that action.
Does it say that explicitly in the Suttas?
I believe it explicitly says this in the abhidhamma. Not sure though. Perhaps robertk can help?
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:27 pm
I don't think "grey" is a good term, as to me it implies ambiguity. I think both "black and white" is slightly different.
Ok. This is just a quibble about terminology here.
Actually I think it is an important point. Black and white is Black and white not grey. A striped black and white shirt is not grey.

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm
Kill humans?
Yes.
I don't agree. I dont think being a householder means that sometimes we will kill humans.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Sam Vara »

Mr Man wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:29 pm
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm He never said it’s ok to kill humans,
Okay :twothumbsup:
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:01 pm but Buddha isn’t God. His word isn’t moral law. He merely states what is. We ourselves must choose. And yes, being a householder means that sometimes we will kill.
Kill humans?
There is the risk of talking at cross-purposes here, but I think Mr. Man is closest to what the Buddha seems to have intended.

Mr Man is correct that the Buddha never says it is OK to kill humans. He never speaks in praise of killing (except metaphorically) and points out frequently that it is dark kamma with dark result. The intention is always bad, and the results are always portrayed unfavourably. The point is made hundreds of times throughout the canon, and seems to be beyond doubt.

However, clw_uk's point is about the lack of an absolute proscription. Nowhere does the Buddha say that killing another human must not be done, come what may. True enough. But to put this in some sort of context, the Buddha does not say this of anything. There are no categorical imperatives anywhere in the canon, and the issue of killing should probably be seen in this light. Even a monk who kills, merely ceases to be a monk. We might with the same justification argue that it might under some circumstances be OK for a householder to murder a SammaSamBuddha because it is never specifically proscribed. How dark a grey does the kamma need to be, or how narrow must the white stripe be?
Caodemarte
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Caodemarte »

No Buddhist Sangha in a majority Buddhist country condemns patriotism, but rather encourages it. Love of country or family is fine as long as it Is not perverted into hatred of others, attachment, or grasping. Hopefully, we will expand our ability to love (here meant in its spiritual sense) and to be kind, not restrict it.
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Volo
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Volo »

Thoughts about one's country are subtle defilements:
AN 3.101 wrote:So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is devoted to the higher mind, (1) there are in him gross defilements: bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct. An earnest, capable bhikkhu abandons, dispels, terminates, and obliterates them. When this has been done, (2) there remain in him middling defilements: sensual thoughts, thoughts of ill will, and thoughts of harming. An earnest, capable bhikkhu abandons, dispels, terminates, and obliterates them. When this has been done, (3) there remain in him subtle defilements: thoughts about his relations,556 thoughts about his country, and thoughts about his reputation.557 An earnest, capable bhikkhu abandons, dispels, terminates, and obliterates them. When this has been done, then there remain thoughts connected with the Dhamma.558 That concentration is not peaceful and sublime, not gained by full tranquilization,559 not attained to unification, but is reined in and checked by forcefully suppressing [the defilements].560
dharmacorps
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by dharmacorps »

Caodemarte wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:34 pm No Buddhist Sangha in a majority Buddhist country condemns patriotism, but rather encourages it. Love of country or family is fine as long as it Is not perverted into hatred of others, attachment, or grasping. Hopefully, we will expand our ability to love (here meant in its spiritual sense) and to be kind, not restrict it.
What is the expression, patriotism is love of one's country but nationalism is thinking your country is better than the rest. The first is skillful the second isn't.

There are a few reflections here I think are useful: borders and countries are impermanent, man-made concepts.

We have all had innumerable rebirths of all sorts of nationalities, ethnicities, races, identities; including many "countries" that no longer exist, and many that nobody even knows about anymore.

Sometimes, love of one's country can even be twisted into attachment to what one thinks is best for one's country, such as specific leaders, a specific set of ideas. Those are really just things used by politicians and the media to get you to do something they want you to do. It is often better to just try to be helpful and do the best you can with what seems sensible, but leaving the attachments and political agendas at the door.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

binocular wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:57 am One has to take some care of the physical land one is attempting to practice in. If Buddhist lay people wouldn't protect the land, Buddhist monks would have no place to be.
What a powerful expression!
Personally strongly agreed.
One must protect the land to protect Dhamma, even if that land happens to be a virtual one.
:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:


Viachh wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 am
binocular wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:57 am One has to take some care of the physical land one is attempting to practice in. If Buddhist lay people wouldn't protect the land, Buddhist monks would have no place to be.
Will lay people have the right to kill for the opportunity for the monks to practice?
No.

What I believe is, from Buddhism point of view, no one has the right to kill any single sentient beings even for the protection of Buddha's Dhamma, or even with the best-of-the-best intentions to save the lives of a gazillion other sentient beings.

I don't believe that those who have attained stream entry and beyond will ever think of intentionally killing even an ant for the sake of protecting one's own nation/country or the humankind or the World, or even for the protection Buddha's Dhamma.

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
metta
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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