Who is doing the "attaching"?

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Ryan95227
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Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by Ryan95227 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:58 am

As I become more aware of the contents of my mind, I'm beginning to notice that intitial/neutral thought gives rise to feeling/emotion/baggage which gives rise to possible actions. If there is "attachment" to the initial thought there comes immediate suffering (unpleasantness, hatred,anger) What I notice is that as soon as the process of attachment is seen there is no progression towards suffering. But the most puzzling about all this is that there seems to be nothing that is doing the attaching YET there is something that is attaching to these thoughts? Who is doing the attaching? It doesn't seem to be backed by a subtle thought. Any answers?

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by salayatananirodha » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:18 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.than.html wrote:"Lord, who clings?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'clings.' If I were to say 'clings,' then 'Who clings?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes clinging?' And the valid answer is, 'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.[1]

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of the six sense media[2] comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Pondera
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by Pondera » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:36 am

And in what state does “"the remainderless fading & cessation of the six sense media[2]” come about?

SarathW
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by SarathW » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:38 am

-ear consciousness attaches to the sound
- tongue consciousness attaches to taste etc
for instance, when I say I attach to an apple it involves six senses (consciousness).
It is a process.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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one_awakening
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by one_awakening » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:35 am

Ryan95227 wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:58 am
Who is doing the attaching?
There's a problem with your question, You are assuming that there is a self doing the attaching.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:43 am

Greetings,
one_awakening wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:35 am
Ryan95227 wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:58 am
Who is doing the attaching?
There's a problem with your question, You are assuming that there is a self doing the attaching.
:goodpost:

Indeed... it's a "wrong question".

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

SarathW
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by SarathW » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:22 am

Who is writing this post?
According to Buddhist teaching, it is the result of eye consciousness seen your OP a few hours back.
If I did not see your post I would not have written this post.
Then who saw the OP?
That is a result of another previous action. If I did not join Dhamma Wheel six years ago I would not be typing this post.
Because we are not Arahants it is not easy to understand this.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:09 am

one_awakening wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:35 am
There's a problem with your question, You are assuming that there is a self doing the attaching.
If one listens to Buddhist talks and reads Buddhist texts, one can come across sentences that contain the formulation "we are attached to" or "you are attached to" (just google them for some examples).

These Buddhist teachers appear to assume "there is a self doing the attaching" (or something to that effect), or they wouldn't write or say those sentences.

So the OP is hardly alone in their assumption that there is a self doing the attaching.

SarathW
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by SarathW » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:17 am

Is this question similar to "who's planting the trees in the forest"?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Srilankaputra
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:36 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:17 am
Is this question similar to "who's planting the trees in the forest"?
Thanks. I'm copying this to my notes.

"Ye dhamma hetuppabhavā"
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:29 am

binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:09 am
one_awakening wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:35 am
There's a problem with your question, You are assuming that there is a self doing the attaching.
If one listens to Buddhist talks and reads Buddhist texts, one can come across sentences that contain the formulation "we are attached to" or "you are attached to" (just google them for some examples).

These Buddhist teachers appear to assume "there is a self doing the attaching" (or something to that effect), or they wouldn't write or say those sentences.

So the OP is hardly alone in their assumption that there is a self doing the attaching.
Excellent point. It's clear that there is ample room within Buddhist discourse for an agent that does things. The Buddha himself often talks in such a way. In SN 22.22, for example, he talks of "the carrier of the burden" (i.e. the burden of the 5 clinging-aggregates): an individual (puggalo) who is identifiable in terms of name and surname.

auto
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by auto » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:25 pm

one_awakening wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:35 am
Ryan95227 wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:58 am
Who is doing the attaching?
There's a problem with your question, You are assuming that there is a self doing the attaching.
If to read the Sutta quote on second post then it is about asking " who is attaching", but Buddha doesn't say "attaching" therefore the valid question is:
"from what as a requisite condition comes attaching". And the answer is from craving as requisite condition comes attaching.

that way you won't fall to notions of if there is self or not.

https://suttacentral.net/sn27.10/en/sujato
At Sāvatthī. “Mendicants, desire and greed for form, feeling, perception, choices, or consciousness is a corruption of the mind. When a mendicant has given up mental corruption in these five cases, their mind inclines to renunciation. A mind imbued with renunciation is declared to be capable of directly knowing anything that can be realized.”
directly knowing
..

https://suttacentral.net/sn28.1/en/sujato
…..“That must be because Venerable Sāriputta has long ago totally eradicated ego, possessiveness, and the underlying tendency to conceit. Tathā hi panāyasmato sāriputtassa dīgharattaṃ ahaṅkāramamaṅkāramānānusayā susamūhatā.
That’s why it didn’t occur to you: Tasmā āyasmato sāriputtassa na evaṃ hoti:
‘I am entering the first absorption’ or ‘I have entered the first absorption’ or ‘I am emerging from the first absorption’.”
“‘ahaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpajjāmī’ti vā ‘ahaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpanno’ti vā ‘ahaṃ paṭhamā jhānā vuṭṭhito’ti vā”ti.

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bodom
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by bodom » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:49 pm

Even Arahants need to use conventions to communicate:
An arahant monk,
one who is done,
effluent-free, bearing his last body:
Would he say, ‘I speak’?
Would he say, ‘They speak to me’?”

“An arahant monk,
one who is done,
effluent-free, bearing his last body:
He would say, ‘I speak’;
would say, ‘They speak to me.’

Skillful,
knowing harmonious gnosis
with regard to the world,
he uses expressions
just as expressions.”

“An arahant monk,
one who is done,
effluent-free, bearing his last body:
Is it from conceit
that he’d say, ‘ I speak’?—
that he’d say, ‘They speak to me’?”

“For one whose conceit is abandoned,
whose knot of conceit is dispersed,
no knots exist
at all.

He, beyond any concept, wise,
would say, ‘I speak’;
would say, ‘They speak to me.’

Skillful,
knowing harmonious gnosis
with regard to the world,
he uses expressions
just as expressions.”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN1_25.html

:anjali:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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Sam Vara
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:28 pm

bodom wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:49 pm
Even Arahants need to use conventions to communicate:
:goodpost: :anjali:

auto
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Re: Who is doing the "attaching"?

Post by auto » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:35 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:28 pm
bodom wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:49 pm
Even Arahants need to use conventions to communicate:
:goodpost: :anjali:
What does that quote imply? ("Even Arahants need to use conventions to communicate")

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