Wat Dhammakaya

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
exonesion
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:23 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

jameswang wrote: Indeed. I realise that I'm wasting my time here.... I've unsubscribed from this thread. (I suppose that's a purpose of you guys being here.) Have fun!
I'm here to provide the other side of the issue and my opinions for WPD because the arguments here were too one-sided.

And I haven't been wasting my time because I learned more about WPD. :tongue:

Warmest regards
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
slimdabuddhist
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:07 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist »

I agree with james all these wpd followers do is deflect and deny that their leader is flawless and perfect. Arguing with cultist is like touching a stove twice. Done posting on this thread
Will still look at it, but no more posting.
User avatar
exonesion
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:23 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

slimdabuddhist wrote:I agree with james all these wpd followers do is deflect and deny that their leader is flawless and perfect. Arguing with cultist is like touching a stove twice. Done posting on this thread
Will still look at it, but no more posting.
This is a strawman - nowhere in my replies did I say that WPD's abbot is perfect.


And that's because I've put across some points such as:


1. News alleging that the abbot's claim of a man being reborn in heaven is fake.
But no incriminating evidence yet.

2. The current abbot of Wat Paknam's issue with the vintage Mercedez Benz.
I wonder why he didn't give it away. (I didn't do my research for this one)

3. Why, many years ago, did the WPD's abbot held land in his name?
Why didn't he transfer it to the temple?



I do have my doubts, so I'm here to discuss the "correctness" of certain practices of the temple.

I respect your opinion (that the temple is a cult), but I would like to know why.
The same goes for Jameswang. He said there's another rule about not claiming to have super powers. And I asked if he could clarify which rule. But since I couldn't find it, and he didn't reply me, I suspect there's no such rule at all.

Feel free to come back when you've any claims supported by strong evidence. We will appreciate it.

Warmest regards,
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4647
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

exonesion wrote:He said there's another rule about not claiming to have super powers. And I asked if he could clarify which rule. But since I couldn't find it, and he didn't reply me, I suspect there's no such rule at all.
You obviously did not try very hard to find it. It is in the Pātimokkha rules, Pācittiya 8.

Buddhist Sacred Texts
8. Whatsoever Bhikkhu shall tell one not received into the higher grade (of the Order) that the (speaker or any other Bhikkhu) has extraordinary spiritual gifts, even when such, is the case--that is a Pācittiya.
i.e. There is no offence in telling another fully ordained bhikkhu, but there is in telling a novice or lay person.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
exonesion
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:23 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:You obviously did not try very hard to find it. It is in the Pātimokkha rules, Pācittiya 8.
Buddhist Sacred Texts
8. Whatsoever Bhikkhu shall tell one not received into the higher grade (of the Order) that the (speaker or any other Bhikkhu) has extraordinary spiritual gifts, even when such, is the case--that is a Pācittiya.
i.e. There is no offence in telling another fully ordained bhikkhu, but there is in telling a novice or lay person.
Thank you venerable for pointing out what the "other rule" Jameswang mentioned. :anjali:
And I admit I didn't do my homework about the Patimokkha. This shows Jameswang knew more about the rules than me, haha :jumping:


But the point of contention is whether the abbot's "case studies" constitute a breach of either:

1. Parajika 4 (For allegedly "lying" about his meditative attainments)
2. Pācittiya 8 (For allegedly "talking" about his meditative attainments to novices and lay people)

And this is important because DSI, and the now DSI-chaired National Office of Buddhism (NOB) director wish to have WPD's abbot defrocked.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... dhammajayo

As I've expressed in a previous post, how do we know if the abbot is lying about his meditative attainments?
But what is more interesting to note, is that the abbot didn't explicitly say that he used his meditative attainments to see people's past or their future. It was implied. So if the abbot didn't explicitly mention about his meditative attainments, how can he lie?

And because it was implied, does it violate Pacittiya 8? That's because he didn't "report, or talk, or share" about his meditative attainments, only implied it. I'm interested in people's views over this, especially venerables who are well-versed in the Patimokkha. :anjali:
I believe the issue will be deliberated over by the Sangha Council and an appropriate measure will be given



But to be very strict, it's best for a monk not to disclose or even hint that he has any meditative attainments - to prevent any doubt that one broke the precept. Regardless of this, I find the case studies amusing. Logically and karmically speaking, the case studies don't seem too out of place, and there's nothing that raises any red flags or abnormalities. And I believe the case studies achieve its intended effect, to share about the Law of Karma to those who listen and convince them to (1) Avoid evil, (2) Do good, and (3) Purify their mind.

Case studies ---> Intended effect
Rebirth in hell for drinking? ----> Don't drink
Rebirth in heaven because of practicing generosity? ----> Practice generosity
Rebirth in heaven because of habitual meditation? ----> Meditate more

If the case studies are real, then the biggest problem would be a breach of Pacittiya 8.
But if it's false, then it entails expulsion.

But either way, many devotees changed their behavior for the better, not worse.
And in light of this, is WPD still a cult?


Warmest regards,
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by SDC »

exonesion wrote:As I've expressed in a previous post, how do we know if the abbot is lying about his meditative attainments?
Such a thing cannot be verified externally which is the catch-22 that a wise bhikkhu would very clearly understand and therefore not say anything in the first place. Meaning he wouldn't even beg the question or invite the attention to such a matter because it would just confuse people. This monk probably intended to stoke faith and/or praise, but the uncertainty that is overshadowing both is clearly doing the most damage.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
slimdabuddhist
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:07 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist »

Even if I were to post solid evidence or articles you'd say it's either false or the media is trying to damage your reputation. So like I said again, no point in putting my hand in stove again. And no post and any other media outlet that disagree with wpd is out to get you guys. :clap: and dhammakayauncovered is not biased at all, right? :rolleye:

here's an article to make u happy I got it from another thread prob was posted here or brought up
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/op ... t/30307533
Neither do true religious leaders use politics as an excuse to hide behind. In fact, they must stay away from politics at all costs.
Lord Buddha founded and fostered Buddhism at a time when Northern India knew nothing of
democracy and was ruled by absolute monarchies. Most importantly, perhaps, credible religious leaders don’t portray themselves as victims, are forgiving and encourage their followers to do the same.
That is what distinguishes spiritual leaders from their political counterparts. Buddhism in particular teaches that once we consider ourselves a victim – as being persecuted for whatever reason – the “ego” immediately comes into play, which leads to all kinds of problems. The temptations of self-pity, fear and anger arise, all of them the biggest enemies of Buddhism.
Yall claim to be tryna to stay outta politics but wpd are the biggest hypocrites ever on politics. Why have a tv channel that is 24/7 seems strange that other buddhist sects don't have one? Yall have news to pat yourselves on the back at the end of the day. It's okay if a government is supporting you but when your leader is accused of a crime and fail to actually prove himself innocent yall play the victim card.
User avatar
exonesion
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:23 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

SDC wrote:
exonesion wrote:As I've expressed in a previous post, how do we know if the abbot is lying about his meditative attainments?
Such a thing cannot be verified externally which is the catch-22 that a wise bhikkhu would very clearly understand and therefore not say anything in the first place. Meaning he wouldn't even beg the question or invite the attention to such a matter because it would just confuse people. This monk probably intended to stoke faith and/or praise, but the uncertainty that is overshadowing both is clearly doing the most damage.
:goodpost: I agree.

slimdabuddhist wrote: if I were to post solid evidence or articles you'd say it's either false or the media is trying to damage your reputation. Apparently bangkokpost and any other media outlet that disagree with wpd is out to get you guys. and dhammakayauncovered is not biased at all, right?
You misunderstand me.
Nowhere did I say that Dhammakayauncovered is unbiased, because it is not. And so is Bangkokpost.
The difference between these two websites, I believe, is the quality of evidence they proffer.

On the one hand, WPD and Dhammakayauncovered has all the information it needs, so it is in the position to report facts.
(Some may prefer to assume that the temple is "evil" by nature and is out to "brainwash" people)
This is an opinion that I cannot argue. But since it is baseless speculation, this is an opinion that cannot be taken as fact.
I have advanced arguments in my earlier posts about the Dhamma teachings that WPD teach. But they still stand uncontested.

So instead of addressing them, you've resorted to saying WPD followers are "cultists". Again, this is an opinion I cannot argue.
But you could have argued that we are cultists by finding sources (From WPD's official website) that suggest WPD "twists" the Buddha's teachings.

On the other hand, Bangkokpost reports about WPD from afar and based them from hearsay.
(How would the news editors or news reporters know what's really happening in the temple if they didn't attend the temple regularly and interact with the monks?)

And on the contrary, sometimes, although extremely rare, Bangkokpost reports on something which I think is true and important. And one of that was why the abbot held on to a land deed, but that was many years ago. So, slim, I do read the Bangkokpost, but a lot news they have to offer are just speculation.


May you be happy :smile:

Warmest regards
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
User avatar
exonesion
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:23 am

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

slimdabuddhist wrote: Yall claim to be tryna to stay outta politics but wpd are the biggest hypocrites ever on politics.
WPD says it's apolitical. It's the sensationalist news media that struggles to show that WPD is political (yellow or red).
I mentioned earlier that the news media says that WPD is political just because Thaksin is seen in the ceremony.
Again, I'll ask the same question as before:
If a famous murderer is seen in one of WPD's ceremony, does this mean that WPD is supporting the murderer?

Why have a tv channel that is 24/7 seems strange that other buddhist sects don't have one?
DMC TV, is, or was, a 24/7 channel that caters to devotees around the world, so they can watch the Dhamma programs on regardless of the time.
(I don't like the lame cartoons though, cause they're more for kids).
But even if other Buddhist organizations don't have one, why does it seem strange to you? Could you explain?


It's okay if a government is supporting you but when your leader is accused of a crime and fail to actually prove himself innocent yall play the victim card.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Warmest regards
Exonesion
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by chownah »

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Thailand?....military junta running the country? Even when a popular democratically elected gov't is in charge this is somewhat of a joke. In thailand if you are in the way and don't get out of the way then you are guilty and proof is sort of a secondary sort of circus act sometimes....not always though.
chownah
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 »

jameswang wrote:
exonesion wrote:As for your post about the music video and that your allegation that the human rights may be copied from somewhere, may we know where? We could use some mention of that somewhere. And I don’t think a music video posted on their site is enough to discredit the website.
I wonder if you're just pretending to be unintelligent. But never mind, I'll give you the benefit of doubt, be more direct about what I think: It's a fraudulent website.

The music video blog post is among the other irrelevant ones shown as posted in 2012, while according to
http://whois.domaintools.com/tahr-global.org
the domain was "Created on 2014-03-05".

From my samplings, the supposedly older postings are just copied material from elsewhere. Only the more recent ones are original, and they are specifically on Dhammakaya.

Seems obvious to me it's a (poor) con PR job.

I was able to find other sites that have the Dk material also so it doesnt look like its only other stuff. Based on what ive been told the site is blocked in Thailand so it makes sense the posts would be on multiple sites.

People in Thailand feel free to verify.
http://tahr-global.org/?p=32050
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 »

A few more statements. On Pornchai. im inclined to believe he was just acting on his own. I beleive Dhammakaya does sponsor WLBY or whatever it is. but theres a good chance Dr. Pornchai was just acting on his own with regard to Ashin Wirathu. Given that there was an attempt to remove him i think thats reasonable.


Yes Im aware of that rule Bhikku Pesala pointed out.Thank you bhante. But actually if you look at LP Dhammajayos sermons he frequently says "this is only a fairy tale" to help understand the law of karma. so you "could" argue he isnt actually claiming this since he doesnt say it directly. But generally his followers do beleive he knows via meditation even tho he doesnt say it explicitly so i suppose this would still count. its a minor violation tho.

I do want some of the ppls thoughts on this tho. A monk considered a master of the super always right forest tradition making the claims explicitly.

"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 »

chownah wrote:
What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Thailand?....military junta running the country? Even when a popular democratically elected gov't is in charge this is somewhat of a joke. In thailand if you are in the way and don't get out of the way then you are guilty and proof is sort of a secondary sort of circus act sometimes....not always though.
chownah
Speaking of which, heres a situation that has many parallels to whats going on now.

Heres a quote from book thats banned in Thailand. This is my response to the random accusations that all happened to have come to light during the Dictator's reign. You'll notice a few similarities, just change the people and accusations.
Religion reverted back to a royal-centered activity, reinforcing the idea of the king’s dhammaraja and devaraja godliness. Pin also helped regain full palace control over the sangha, a process that involved one of the most crude and cynical displays of royal power during the period. In spite of gains the Thammayut sect (for background this is part of the super-always right forest tradition) had made just after the war, during the 1950s the rival Mahanikay school, backed by Phibun, retained a number of top sangha administrative positions. These monks blocked the palace’s plan to abrogate Phibun’s democratizing Sangha Act of 1941 and restore King Chulalongkorn’s 1902 code, which allowed the throne direct control over the monkhood. Leading the Mahanikay resistance was Phra Phimontham, the abbot of Wat Mahathat, the foremost Mahanikay temple, located near the Grand Palace. Phimontham’s abilities as a wat manager and leader, his monastic discipline, and his religious scholarship were undeniable. By his high rank, he was one of the monks who oversaw the king’s ordination in 1956. In the 1950s he was a certain candidate for the sanghanayok, or sangha premiership, and after that possibly supreme patriarch. Very politically minded, and with a power base rooted among activist monks in northeastern temples, Phimontham had long fought Thammayut elitism as well as government oppression of peasants. When the government said communists should not be allowed in temples, Phimontham countered that a good monk will accept anyone, communist or not. Phimontham’s obstinacy and political views rendered him, to the palace and government, a serious threat. Beginning in the Sarit period, they took strong steps to repress him. In 1958 the Thammayut supreme patriarch died. The presumed heir was the sangha prime minister Plot Kittisophana, a Mahanikay monk whom palace offcials had found fairly cooperative. But they worried that Plot’s vacated sanghanayok place would fall to Phimontham. Working in the palace’s favor was the fact that Plot himself deeply disliked Phimontham. After the supreme patriarch died, the palace, represented by Pin and Prince Dhani, cut a deal in which Plot would be promoted in exchange for freezing Phimontham’s rise. Plot also agreed to abrogate the 1941 Sangha Act and reinstate the royalist act of 1902. Days after his installation on May 5, 1960, Plot obliged. He named the Thammayut monk Juan Uttayi sangha premier. A few weeks later, after the new sangha cabinet declared a policy of weeding out communist monks, Phimontham was arrested and charged by police, falsely, with homosexual behavior, improper dress, and communist leanings, and was ordered to disrobe. When he refused, in October Sarit and Pin had him dislodged as Wat Mahathat abbot. Two weeks after that he was stripped of all of his clerical titles and reduced to a common monk. The scandal rocked the sangha and the public. Phimontham was released from jail after several weeks for lack of evidence. (this was b4 they passed the law stating monks had to be forcibly disrobed if detained i believe) But he returned to Wat Mahathat as a rank-and file monk. Plot meanwhile created a new sangha act that, based on the 1902 charter, recentralized administration under Thammayut control. The sangha premier and cabinet were eliminated, and replaced with the mahatherasamakhom, or sangha council, made up of the most senior titled monks, which in numbers the Thammayut dominated. This new act had several important effects. Although doctrinal differences between the schools had become less significant, putting Thammayut on top ensured that the sangha remained closely allied with the palace, whoever controlled the religious afairs department of the Education Ministry. The monks would advance the palace agenda. This achieved, on June 20, 1962, Phimontham was declared a threat to national security for supporting communists and rearrested, under Sarit’s order. He was forcibly disrobed in a police station with Sarit and two top Thammayut sangha council members watching, and imprisoned for four years. In prison he wore white robes as a symbol of his rejection of civil and royal authority over the sangha. Phimontham’s neutralization completed the palace’s capture of national culture. In schools and temples, history, worship, and tradition could now be manipulated to ensure unquestioning support for Chakri culture and power, and for the triune of nation, religion, and king. By the mid-1960s the memory of 1932 and the Phibun-Pridi interregnum was almost completely snuffed out, or twisted into something evil"


The King Never Smiles. Pg 152-154

For the safety of ppl in Thailand i will not provide a link, dont want any1 getting arrested. Especially with that Single Gateway thing.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 »

BTW for those of you who dont know about the Dictator's single gateway heres some info.


"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Santi253
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 4:37 am
Contact:

Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Santi253 »

The Thai government is corrupt, and it persecutes the Dhammakaya movement due to an irrational fear that it poses a threat to the state. This persecution has nothing to do with whether the Dhammakaya movement is a good thing or not. Ho hum. Now pass the butter.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Post Reply