Wat Dhammakaya

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:06 am

Lol I ordained several times as a novice when lp same was abbot and chat chai was the vice abbot. This trobinson sounds so arrogant and sure of himself. I chose not to name myself because they all know me there I'm not going to verify who I am, but if you wanted me to name drop I can. :lol: so please don't tell me I don't know the branch that I used to go too. You don't know me and I don't know you. But you sir sound condescending as hell, and sorry I'm being honest but I don't wanna break the 4th precept.

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:14 am

jameswang wrote:
Turmeric wrote:
ManEagle wrote:I do wish they'd hurry up and get this Dhammajayo business sorted out soon. Just recently my wife has taken to chanting whenever she can. And she's got hold of some annoying YT video from Dhammakaya with chanting at twice the normal speed. Sounds like Pinkie & Perky chanting. It's driving me bloody mad! Apparently it's necessary to get as many chanting rounds in per hour because this is going to help their beloved abbot! (Or is it ex-abbot?). My mind boggles at some of the utter tosh they're being fed by the temple and its disciples.
Your wife is doing a good thing and you should try to avoid hurting her by making her lose faith. If you love her then you should encourage her to meditate more, go to the temple more, and chant more.

Anyways. For everyone here. Here is a cool preaching from Phramongkulthepmuni the founder of the Dhammakaya lineage

We are not stupid people who cannot tell the difference between what's right and what's wrong!
Ahem... By quoting this, you seem to imply ManEagle is too stupid to tell the difference.

Look, I don't want to be your enemy. I think you're a nice person. Let's try to discuss this without being disagreeable.

Consider a scenario where ManEagle's wife is doing all the same: going often to Wat Dk, donating lots of money, chanting often, then beginning to chant twice the speed believing that would help the abbot, etc. All the same, except the 'spaceship' stupa has a big cross on top, looking suspiciously Christian, and people worship it of course, and the abbot is wears a similar big cross. Plus, the name of the place is ChristKaya. In other words, it seems more like a strange Christian cult; but all else the same: The abbot preaches the same idea of Nirvana, the same idea of heaven, the same idea of donating as much as possible so that one can be super-rich the next life; the temple ground has a credit union to borrow money from to donate to the temple; the monks march on red carpet through the city carrying big umbrellas they don't use; you can even buy from the temple special 'golden' hammers to knock on heaven's door if it's closed, etc.

Would you still encourage people to go?

Just take time to think about it.

Someone brought this up to me so i decided to come back and reply to this real quick.

First off. none of this justifies the dictator harassing us. You seem to have stopped trying to accuse us of breaking 300 random crimes. And i doubt a forest monk would willingly turn himself in knowing the dictator was going to disrobe him and appoint his own pawn to run his temple (again, the junta told reuters they will do this).

Second. I think a huge problem with this thread is misinformation and ur claims are evidence of such. Ill try not to be disagreeable as well and i cant blame you for not knowing anyways.

1. Im not sure how a cross would make a difference but, the abbot teaches the same thing about Nirvana as the rest of the Dk tradition. True self. It is the minority, but still common among other theravada traditions.

2. Again, the central teaching of Dk is meditation, not giving. Even when giving they tell you to purify the mind b4. They do not encourage giving away all your money. It is the same as most other temples, the only difference is probably the scale and frequency of the fundraising.

3. The credit union is near the temple. not on, and only there because its a big place. there are schools and restaurants near the temple also. you think vatican city has no banks nearby? and it is not for loans to make donations. Despite the fact that ppl did that in the Buddhas time our abbot said not to take out loans to make donations. Maybe ppl do that, but i dont know of any and its taught there not to do that.

4.Those arent even umbrellas, i guess i cant blame you for not knowing that since u got ur info from online and on this forum rather than direct experience such as myself. so for the record. Those are tents, and they do use them. they sleep in them once they reach their destination.

5. The hammer is not to break down the gates of heaven. that was something somebody made up (probably on here). Its a commemorative gift for contributors to symbolize that they helped "build" the temple.

I appreciate you taking the time to read my corrections of your statements.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

TRobinson465
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:18 am

jameswang wrote:
exonesion wrote:If an influential, well-respected monk in the forest lineage has been targeted by the Thai Junta. He may be unjustly forced to disrobe. And I believe his disciples will do the same to protect him.
Firstly, there wouldn't be a reason for that.

If this monk in the forest lineage were asked to go to the police station, he would most likely cooperate. Then there's no need for the disciples to do as Dk members are doing. If any of his disciples turn violent, he would discourage that. He wouldn't hide himself.
This is why i say "super always right forest tradition". Ppl here seem to think thier forest tradition is superior and flawless. Not to generalize the whole forest tradition but just saying a noticable amount of ppl on this thread come off this way. this is an example.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:32 am

exonesion wrote:
slimdabuddhist wrote:On the topic of claiming to be able to recall people's past lives as being a Parajika offence,
4. Boasting that one has realised a high spiritual attainment, knowing that one is lying. For example, claiming to be enlightened, to be Maitreya Buddha, to have entered Jhana (deep meditation-ecstasy) or that one can read minds when one knows that one hasn't reached any of these states.
What if Luang Phor Dhammachayo has the ability to see people's past?
So what if he has? It's still an offense for making claims of psychic powers.

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:07 am

pilgrim wrote:I'm not a fan of Dhammakaya but are they being treated fairly?
http://tahr-global.org/?p=32050
Do you see any unfair treatments?

Anyway, something strange here at that website.

Why does this supposed "The Thai Alliance for Human Rights" post on unrelated subjects, including one on a music video?
The Black Keys : Gold on the Ceilling
http://tahr-global.org/?p=14594
It even quotes the source: AFP Relax News

I've taken a snapshot, in case someone deletes it later. But perhaps I don't have to. There are other postings unrelated to human rights. Those related to human rights seems mostly copied from elsewhere.

Hmm...

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:13 am

Turmeric wrote:Dude, they have taken over the temple and they are kicking the people out that live in the wat and making them sleep in tents. I'm waiting to see if they are going to steal the entire temple, claim ownership, and steal all of the millions of dollars of valuables in there. The monks complied and let the police into the temple, and now look what is happening. For all of the people here that said "why doesn't the abbot just turn himself in and let the law do it's work?" now watch as the law you have so much faith in steals an entire temple from its owners and steals its property. I wouldn't be surprised if Lp Dhammajayo knew this was going to happen.
If he knew, why didn't he just go to the police station and save the temple the raid?
Anyway, instead of sleeping in tents, they can choose to go home, right?

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:20 am

form wrote:Any way after I attended the intermediate course, I was encouraged to attend the advance course in their retreat centre in northern Thailand. I also received a letter from them asking me to donate $2500. It is just a request as they are building a new facility in Singapore that has a hall capable of holding 500 people for meditation at any one time.
Is it normal in Thailand or Singapore for Buddhist organizations to ask for specific amount of donation?
That's about a month's salary for some people there, right?

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:24 am

Turmeric wrote:
samseva wrote:
form wrote:Any way after I attended the intermediate course, I was encouraged to attend the advance course in their retreat centre in northern Thailand. I also received a letter from them asking me to donate $2500. It is just a request as they are building a new facility in Singapore that has a hall capable of holding 500 people for meditation at any one time.
The last part kind of says a lot about Dhammakaya.
I stayed at a dhammakaya temple. Free transportation, free books, free food, free place to stay. Never had to donate anything. Never got a letter asking to donate anything.
You're not in Singapore, right?

Anyway, I think the Dk management is smart enough to treat people differently and expect differently from them. It depends on how you can contribute to them. Anyway, your free stuff came from people like "form".

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:51 am

Turmeric wrote:
samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:I stayed at a dhammakaya temple. Free transportation, free books, free food, free place to stay. Never had to donate anything. Never got a letter asking to donate anything.
It very much resembles Dhammakaya tendencies.

A Thai friend of mine went to Dhammakaya once. It turns out that a monk would guide him during his meditation. After about 20 minutes, the monk then suggested that it would be important for him to donate money to Dhammakaya, which would result in him reaching heaven after his death.

Scary thing.
I have talked to many Dhammakaya monks. None of them have ever suggested I donate anything. But I donate anyways because I'm a Buddhist and thats what the Buddha taught.
Since you've donated, than no need to ask you. If you don't donate, then....

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:58 am

Turmeric wrote:
samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:I stayed at a dhammakaya temple. Free transportation, free books, free food, free place to stay. Never had to donate anything. Never got a letter asking to donate anything.
It very much resembles Dhammakaya tendencies.

A Thai friend of mine went to Dhammakaya once. It turns out that a monk would guide him during his meditation. After about 20 minutes, the monk then suggested that it would be important for him to donate money to Dhammakaya, which would result in him reaching heaven after his death.

Scary thing.
The Buddhas teaching is a scary thing? The Buddha gives a very detailed list in the pali canon of the various heaven realms you go to for donating.
Please read properly. He's talking about the monk suggesting that he donated to Dk, and showing him the carrot. Btw, Isn't this an offence for a monk?
"Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world....
I recall reading another sutta that says this is applicable only for those who are virtuous, not for those who are not. I'm sure some people here can cite it.

Besides, this sutta doesn't say you're to give to Dk, or even any Buddhist party.

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:27 am

DMN wrote:I'm attempting to research the links between Dhammakaya and Ma Ba Tha and most notably the leader Ashin Wirathu can someone provide solid proof of a definite link please?

If I can explain, I am a Buddhist and follower of Dhammakaya. I have kept revisiting this thread with interest. I am not in Thailand so I only know current circumstances of Wat Phra Dhammakaya from the media and Thai temple staff. I was not aware of any link between Ashin Wirathu and Dhammakaya until he organised a demonstration in support of Dhammakaya. The media states, amongst other alleged things, that Ashin Wirathu received an award from Dhammakaya. I only know what the media are telling me and I do not fully trust the media. My position on the media is that a lot of media organisations worldwide are biassed and I think that it is very hard to ascertain whether a newspaper report is accurate or not. I am not taking Dhammakay's line of what it is saying about media organisations over in Thailand I say this from my own point of view. I cannot fully establish what the true relationship is, if any, between Ashin Wirathu (Ma Ba Tha) and Dhammakaya. I need to know with complete certainty if there is a definite link. I hope people who are reading this are also reading between the lines and have figured out that I must know if there is a definite link then this is a game changer for me!
The link is former (purged) World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President, Pornchai Pinyapong.

Here's from an official statement from WFBY:
  • a. Dr. Pornchai Pinyapong, as President of WFBY, has been travelling to numerous places and was always in conjunction with Dhammakaya Foundation (DKF) activities and linked up these activities as DKF and WFBY activities. Dr. Pornchai has been placing WFBY as part of these events without the consent of the Executive Board.
    b. WFBY is a world Buddhist organization that promotes Buddhism for peace and harmony. On a recent widely publicized event, Dr. Pornchai Pinyapong had arbitrary decided on behalf of WFBY to present the World Buddhist Outstanding Leaders Award to Ma Ba Tha, purportedly “for promoting religious harmony in Myanmar”. Ma Ba Tha, which is widely known across the world as a racist organization in Myanmar, is led by Ashin Wirathu. The action of Dr. Pornchai Pinyapong is contrary to the objectives of WFBY as it is widely known to people all over the world that Ashin Wirathu is the leader behind the many violent incidences against the Rohingyas in Myanmar. Dr. Pornchai Pinyapong, while still holding the position as President of WFBY, reportedly donated over one million Baht to build Ma Ba Tha’s radio stations which were not recorded in our accounts nor the Executive Board is aware of this said donation.
Source: https://www.facebook.com/buddhistyouth/ ... 5506250597
Last edited by jameswang on Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:40 am

DMN wrote:My experience of Dhammakaya has been a very positive one and I regard one of the monks as a friend who even offered to spend a lot of time helping me through a personal problem lately. I am however very puzzled when it comes to Dhammakaya. On one hand, I experience an organisation with devoted people who all they seem to do is talk about peace and promote peace. In addition, I have learned a lot at the temple and I have grown personally and spiritually during my time there. On the other hand, there has always been the controversy surrounding the temple back in Thailand and whether the Abbot and others have committed offences or not.
In my experience, Thais are generally nice people. (I've to say "generally", as I've also met overtly nice but covertly horrible ones. These are the materialistic ones out to squeeze money from foreigners.)

I believe that Dk has a higher ratio of nice and good people. They are just been made used by the crafty few for their own selfish ends.

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:11 am

TRobinson465 wrote:Check out Professor James L Taylor's piece here. its very insightful for and gives great understanding into Thailand's Buddhism politics.

http://www.newmandala.org/perplexing-ca ... hammakaya/
I quote: "in the last decade or more it has been largely discreet and remained outside of any political alliance."

Really? I thought someone was just saying how the Dk is connected to Shinawarta family.

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:48 am

mikenz66 wrote:A couple of articles

The power struggle behind Thailand's temple row
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-thail ... SKBN163037

US professor recounts uneasy meeting with Dhammakaya heads
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... kaya-heads

:heart:
Mike
:goodpost: The 2nd one further strengthens what most members of this thread has been talking about.
Thank you, professor! :heart:

slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:29 pm

Yeah see trobinson can't say anything back because he's never been to the Azusa branch. Btw aren't monks supposed to be the ones that clean and take care of their own temple is my question? I know they have their own janitor there but he uses the two twins(I know them both personally and they're extremely hard workers and I feel bad for them) that live there to do most of his work while he hides n sleeps somewhere. Cus I remember monks used to tell me that helping out and cleaning the temple earns you merit. But now looking back I feel like it's an excuse to take advantage of the laypeople.

I'd like a non wpd follower to clarify please cus I know they'll either deflect on me or say something I already know from there.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:09 pm

slimdabuddhist wrote:I'd like a non wpd follower to clarify please.
It is the duty of monks to wash their own robes, clean their own dwellings, and sweep their own monastery compounds, but lay people can also make merit by volunteering to do it. Wealthy supporters could also employ someone to do it, or anagarikas, novices, or students living in the temple could do it as part of their own duties.

Of course, a monk could exploit workers, voluntary or paid, if he was wicked by nature. There again, hired workers could exploit the monks and lay supporters by not doing their duties properly.
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slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:57 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
slimdabuddhist wrote:I'd like a non wpd follower to clarify please.
It is the duty of monks to wash their own robes, clean their own dwellings, and sweep their own monastery compounds, but lay people can also make merit by volunteering to do it. Wealthy supporters could also employ someone to do it, or anagarikas, novices, or students living in the temple could do it as part of their own duties.

Of course, a monk could exploit workers, voluntary or paid, if he was wicked by nature. There again, hired workers could exploit the monks and lay supporters by not doing their duties properly.

Thank you bhante, I have always wondered this cus everytime I went to temple it was always so messy and tents from big events were still not being put away for a couple weeks.

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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:31 am

On the fourth parajika: Claiming of supernatural powers
jameswang wrote: So what if he has? It's still an offense for making claims of psychic powers.
“Should any bhikkhu, without direct knowledge, claim a superior human state, a truly noble knowledge and vision, as present in himself, saying,"

This rule of defeat is applicable only when the Bhikkhu lies about his meditative attainments. Therefore, I asked if the abbot really has vijja or nana of the past. If he has, then wouldn’t this precept remain intact? However, my concern and my doubt is the practical application of this rule. How do you prove that a Bhikkhu is lying? Can any venerable share their understanding of the fourth parajika and how it is accessed to be broken?



On unfair treatment of WPD
jameswang wrote: Do you see any unfair treatments?
Yes, the extremely harsh and extrajudicial use of Article 44 on a temple, with unarmed devotees. Are they a national threat to safety? I'd say this is bully.

As for your post about the music video and that your allegation that the human rights may be copied from somewhere, may we know where? We could use some mention of that somewhere. And I don’t think a music video posted on their site is enough to discredit the website.



On the abbot surrendering
jameswang wrote:
(1) If he knew, why didn't he just go to the police station and save the temple the raid?
(2) Anyway, instead of sleeping in tents, they can choose to go home, right?
(1) If Luang Phor Dhammajayo did, it’s likely he’ll be forced to disrobe. Why? Because DSI made things difficult for him and the temple. For example, DSI could have video-conferenced to him the charges, but they didn’t. They made things horrendously difficult. This is possibly the start of what led to the imposition of Article 44, and all the human rights violation we see today.

(2) They cannot choose to go home. If you mean WPD’s monks, their temple IS their home. And the DSI has currently blocked monks from entering their temple, and hence their home.



On asking for fixed donations
jameswang wrote: Is it normal in Thailand or Singapore for Buddhist organizations to ask for specific amount of donation?
That's about a month's salary for some people there, right?
At WPD’s Singapore, also known as DCS Singapore, it does not ask for a specific amount of donation. Even though I’m not very close to the centre, I’ve attended their beginner and intermediate meditation classes for about 2-3 times and also many of their activities.
In terms of donations, DCS Singapore does not often ask for fixed donations – devotees are free to give any amount they like. But for bigger projects, like the construction of Singapore’s new permanent centre, a lot of funds is required. And they’ve set the minimal donation at certain sum (there’re tiers as well).
I believe (in my opinion), this will encourage devotees to raise more funds to build the new temple and encourage them to donate more (within their capabilities, of course). It is a month’s salary for some people, but the common practice is to pool money and offer it as a group.
I’m not sure about Wat Phra Dhammakaya in Thailand, but from what I can remember, there’re minimal donation amounts for certain projects as well. TRobinson, am I correct?

I’m not sure about other temples in Thailand, but this can be a topic of discussion:
Minimum sum for donations, and tiered contributions.



On "Free" stuff
jameswang wrote: Anyway, your free stuff came from people like "form".
Yes indeed James, the temple is a non-profit organization. So, the “free” stuff are financed or given by devotees. And it’s because of the devotee’s support that the temple is there in the first place. Moreover, giving “free” stuff isn’t specific to WPD. In Singapore, the Singapore Buddhist Lodge provides free vegetarian meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner) for the needy, which is possible only with the funds donated from devotees.

Hence, I don’t see what’s the issue with giving of free stuff here, James.


Warmest regards,
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152

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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:00 am

On the suggestion to donate to WPD
jameswang wrote: He's talking about the monk suggesting that he donated to Dk, and showing him the carrot. Btw, Isn't this an offence for a monk?
I believe this is wrong. But because the message has already been forwarded and retold two times (Monk --> Samseva’s friend --> Samseva), there is a possibility the message has already been distorted.
But IF the monk in question did say that, it’s best for the devotees to remind him of the inappropriateness of his statement, according to the Buddhist scriptures, in private.



On the purging of the World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President:
jameswang wrote: The link is former (purged) World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President, Pornchai Pinyapong.
This ousting of the President was proved unconstitutional.
WFB in its capacity as the “Mother Organization” for WFBY has failed to act impartially as seen in their SELECTIVE Invitation only to WFBY RCs of their choice. As a result RCs from about 10 countries and 16 Members Organizations are not invited.
Hence, the decision was invalid. Therefore, Mr. Pornchai Pinyapong is STILL President of WFBY
DMN wrote:


On WPD’s Political alliance
jameswang wrote: Really? I thought someone was just saying how the Dk is connected to Shinawarta family.
WPD denies any political affiliation.
It’s the news and other forums that alleges that WPD is connected to the Shinawatra family.
However, evidence is scant. The best we have is Mr. Thaksin participating in a ceremony.
But, it is unfair to say that WPD is affiliated to Thaksin just because he was in the ceremony.
It’s like saying a temple is affiliated to a famous serial murderer just because he was spotted in the temple’s ceremony.

Warmest regards,
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152

jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:24 am

exonesion wrote:On the purging of the World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President:
jameswang wrote: The link is former (purged) World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President, Pornchai Pinyapong.
This ousting of the President was proved unconstitutional.
WFB in its capacity as the “Mother Organization” for WFBY has failed to act impartially as seen in their SELECTIVE Invitation only to WFBY RCs of their choice. As a result RCs from about 10 countries and 16 Members Organizations are not invited.
Hence, the decision was invalid. Therefore, Mr. Pornchai Pinyapong is STILL President of WFBY
That's according to your source which has highly vested interest. I rather trust WFBY.

And IN ANY CASE, Pornchai is still the link between Dhammakaya and Wirathu's Ma Ba Tha. Considering the big donation for Ma Ba Tha's radio station, now we can understand why Wirathu is showing support for Dhammakaya.
On WPD’s Political alliance
jameswang wrote: Really? I thought someone was just saying how the Dk is connected to Shinawarta family.
WPD denies any political affiliation.
It’s the news and other forums that alleges that WPD is connected to the Shinawatra family.
However, evidence is scant. The best we have is Mr. Thaksin participating in a ceremony.
But, it is unfair to say that WPD is affiliated to Thaksin just because he was in the ceremony.
It’s like saying a temple is affiliated to a famous serial murderer just because he was spotted in the temple’s ceremony.
Hey! Don't try to twist things here, ok?

It's no secret that Thaksin was far from merely spotted as attending one Dk ceremony. Heck, even Wirathu says that "the former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his sister Yingluk were disciples of Phra Dhammachayo." (https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/u- ... emple.html)

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