Wat Dhammakaya

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

Turmeric wrote:Dude, they have taken over the temple and they are kicking the people out that live in the wat and making them sleep in tents. I'm waiting to see if they are going to steal the entire temple, claim ownership, and steal all of the millions of dollars of valuables in there. The monks complied and let the police into the temple, and now look what is happening. For all of the people here that said "why doesn't the abbot just turn himself in and let the law do it's work?" now watch as the law you have so much faith in steals an entire temple from its owners and steals its property. I wouldn't be surprised if Lp Dhammajayo knew this was going to happen.
If he knew, why didn't he just go to the police station and save the temple the raid?
Anyway, instead of sleeping in tents, they can choose to go home, right?
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

form wrote:Any way after I attended the intermediate course, I was encouraged to attend the advance course in their retreat centre in northern Thailand. I also received a letter from them asking me to donate $2500. It is just a request as they are building a new facility in Singapore that has a hall capable of holding 500 people for meditation at any one time.
Is it normal in Thailand or Singapore for Buddhist organizations to ask for specific amount of donation?
That's about a month's salary for some people there, right?
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

Turmeric wrote:
samseva wrote:
form wrote:Any way after I attended the intermediate course, I was encouraged to attend the advance course in their retreat centre in northern Thailand. I also received a letter from them asking me to donate $2500. It is just a request as they are building a new facility in Singapore that has a hall capable of holding 500 people for meditation at any one time.
The last part kind of says a lot about Dhammakaya.
I stayed at a dhammakaya temple. Free transportation, free books, free food, free place to stay. Never had to donate anything. Never got a letter asking to donate anything.
You're not in Singapore, right?

Anyway, I think the Dk management is smart enough to treat people differently and expect differently from them. It depends on how you can contribute to them. Anyway, your free stuff came from people like "form".
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

Turmeric wrote:
samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:I stayed at a dhammakaya temple. Free transportation, free books, free food, free place to stay. Never had to donate anything. Never got a letter asking to donate anything.
It very much resembles Dhammakaya tendencies.

A Thai friend of mine went to Dhammakaya once. It turns out that a monk would guide him during his meditation. After about 20 minutes, the monk then suggested that it would be important for him to donate money to Dhammakaya, which would result in him reaching heaven after his death.

Scary thing.
I have talked to many Dhammakaya monks. None of them have ever suggested I donate anything. But I donate anyways because I'm a Buddhist and thats what the Buddha taught.
Since you've donated, than no need to ask you. If you don't donate, then....
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

Turmeric wrote:
samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:I stayed at a dhammakaya temple. Free transportation, free books, free food, free place to stay. Never had to donate anything. Never got a letter asking to donate anything.
It very much resembles Dhammakaya tendencies.

A Thai friend of mine went to Dhammakaya once. It turns out that a monk would guide him during his meditation. After about 20 minutes, the monk then suggested that it would be important for him to donate money to Dhammakaya, which would result in him reaching heaven after his death.

Scary thing.
The Buddhas teaching is a scary thing? The Buddha gives a very detailed list in the pali canon of the various heaven realms you go to for donating.
Please read properly. He's talking about the monk suggesting that he donated to Dk, and showing him the carrot. Btw, Isn't this an offence for a monk?
"Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world....
I recall reading another sutta that says this is applicable only for those who are virtuous, not for those who are not. I'm sure some people here can cite it.

Besides, this sutta doesn't say you're to give to Dk, or even any Buddhist party.
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

DMN wrote:I'm attempting to research the links between Dhammakaya and Ma Ba Tha and most notably the leader Ashin Wirathu can someone provide solid proof of a definite link please?

If I can explain, I am a Buddhist and follower of Dhammakaya. I have kept revisiting this thread with interest. I am not in Thailand so I only know current circumstances of Wat Phra Dhammakaya from the media and Thai temple staff. I was not aware of any link between Ashin Wirathu and Dhammakaya until he organised a demonstration in support of Dhammakaya. The media states, amongst other alleged things, that Ashin Wirathu received an award from Dhammakaya. I only know what the media are telling me and I do not fully trust the media. My position on the media is that a lot of media organisations worldwide are biassed and I think that it is very hard to ascertain whether a newspaper report is accurate or not. I am not taking Dhammakay's line of what it is saying about media organisations over in Thailand I say this from my own point of view. I cannot fully establish what the true relationship is, if any, between Ashin Wirathu (Ma Ba Tha) and Dhammakaya. I need to know with complete certainty if there is a definite link. I hope people who are reading this are also reading between the lines and have figured out that I must know if there is a definite link then this is a game changer for me!
The link is former (purged) World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President, Pornchai Pinyapong.

Here's from an official statement from WFBY:
  • a. Dr. Pornchai Pinyapong, as President of WFBY, has been travelling to numerous places and was always in conjunction with Dhammakaya Foundation (DKF) activities and linked up these activities as DKF and WFBY activities. Dr. Pornchai has been placing WFBY as part of these events without the consent of the Executive Board.
    b. WFBY is a world Buddhist organization that promotes Buddhism for peace and harmony. On a recent widely publicized event, Dr. Pornchai Pinyapong had arbitrary decided on behalf of WFBY to present the World Buddhist Outstanding Leaders Award to Ma Ba Tha, purportedly “for promoting religious harmony in Myanmar”. Ma Ba Tha, which is widely known across the world as a racist organization in Myanmar, is led by Ashin Wirathu. The action of Dr. Pornchai Pinyapong is contrary to the objectives of WFBY as it is widely known to people all over the world that Ashin Wirathu is the leader behind the many violent incidences against the Rohingyas in Myanmar. Dr. Pornchai Pinyapong, while still holding the position as President of WFBY, reportedly donated over one million Baht to build Ma Ba Tha’s radio stations which were not recorded in our accounts nor the Executive Board is aware of this said donation.
Source: https://www.facebook.com/buddhistyouth/ ... 5506250597
Last edited by jameswang on Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

DMN wrote:My experience of Dhammakaya has been a very positive one and I regard one of the monks as a friend who even offered to spend a lot of time helping me through a personal problem lately. I am however very puzzled when it comes to Dhammakaya. On one hand, I experience an organisation with devoted people who all they seem to do is talk about peace and promote peace. In addition, I have learned a lot at the temple and I have grown personally and spiritually during my time there. On the other hand, there has always been the controversy surrounding the temple back in Thailand and whether the Abbot and others have committed offences or not.
In my experience, Thais are generally nice people. (I've to say "generally", as I've also met overtly nice but covertly horrible ones. These are the materialistic ones out to squeeze money from foreigners.)

I believe that Dk has a higher ratio of nice and good people. They are just been made used by the crafty few for their own selfish ends.
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

TRobinson465 wrote:Check out Professor James L Taylor's piece here. its very insightful for and gives great understanding into Thailand's Buddhism politics.

http://www.newmandala.org/perplexing-ca ... hammakaya/
I quote: "in the last decade or more it has been largely discreet and remained outside of any political alliance."

Really? I thought someone was just saying how the Dk is connected to Shinawarta family.
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

mikenz66 wrote:A couple of articles

The power struggle behind Thailand's temple row
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-thail ... SKBN163037

US professor recounts uneasy meeting with Dhammakaya heads
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general ... kaya-heads

:heart:
Mike
:goodpost: The 2nd one further strengthens what most members of this thread has been talking about.
Thank you, professor! :heart:
slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist »

Yeah see trobinson can't say anything back because he's never been to the Azusa branch. Btw aren't monks supposed to be the ones that clean and take care of their own temple is my question? I know they have their own janitor there but he uses the two twins(I know them both personally and they're extremely hard workers and I feel bad for them) that live there to do most of his work while he hides n sleeps somewhere. Cus I remember monks used to tell me that helping out and cleaning the temple earns you merit. But now looking back I feel like it's an excuse to take advantage of the laypeople.

I'd like a non wpd follower to clarify please cus I know they'll either deflect on me or say something I already know from there.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

slimdabuddhist wrote:I'd like a non wpd follower to clarify please.
It is the duty of monks to wash their own robes, clean their own dwellings, and sweep their own monastery compounds, but lay people can also make merit by volunteering to do it. Wealthy supporters could also employ someone to do it, or anagarikas, novices, or students living in the temple could do it as part of their own duties.

Of course, a monk could exploit workers, voluntary or paid, if he was wicked by nature. There again, hired workers could exploit the monks and lay supporters by not doing their duties properly.
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slimdabuddhist
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by slimdabuddhist »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
slimdabuddhist wrote:I'd like a non wpd follower to clarify please.
It is the duty of monks to wash their own robes, clean their own dwellings, and sweep their own monastery compounds, but lay people can also make merit by volunteering to do it. Wealthy supporters could also employ someone to do it, or anagarikas, novices, or students living in the temple could do it as part of their own duties.

Of course, a monk could exploit workers, voluntary or paid, if he was wicked by nature. There again, hired workers could exploit the monks and lay supporters by not doing their duties properly.

Thank you bhante, I have always wondered this cus everytime I went to temple it was always so messy and tents from big events were still not being put away for a couple weeks.
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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

On the fourth parajika: Claiming of supernatural powers
jameswang wrote: So what if he has? It's still an offense for making claims of psychic powers.
“Should any bhikkhu, without direct knowledge, claim a superior human state, a truly noble knowledge and vision, as present in himself, saying,"

This rule of defeat is applicable only when the Bhikkhu lies about his meditative attainments. Therefore, I asked if the abbot really has vijja or nana of the past. If he has, then wouldn’t this precept remain intact? However, my concern and my doubt is the practical application of this rule. How do you prove that a Bhikkhu is lying? Can any venerable share their understanding of the fourth parajika and how it is accessed to be broken?



On unfair treatment of WPD
jameswang wrote: Do you see any unfair treatments?
Yes, the extremely harsh and extrajudicial use of Article 44 on a temple, with unarmed devotees. Are they a national threat to safety? I'd say this is bully.

As for your post about the music video and that your allegation that the human rights may be copied from somewhere, may we know where? We could use some mention of that somewhere. And I don’t think a music video posted on their site is enough to discredit the website.



On the abbot surrendering
jameswang wrote:
(1) If he knew, why didn't he just go to the police station and save the temple the raid?
(2) Anyway, instead of sleeping in tents, they can choose to go home, right?
(1) If Luang Phor Dhammajayo did, it’s likely he’ll be forced to disrobe. Why? Because DSI made things difficult for him and the temple. For example, DSI could have video-conferenced to him the charges, but they didn’t. They made things horrendously difficult. This is possibly the start of what led to the imposition of Article 44, and all the human rights violation we see today.

(2) They cannot choose to go home. If you mean WPD’s monks, their temple IS their home. And the DSI has currently blocked monks from entering their temple, and hence their home.



On asking for fixed donations
jameswang wrote: Is it normal in Thailand or Singapore for Buddhist organizations to ask for specific amount of donation?
That's about a month's salary for some people there, right?
At WPD’s Singapore, also known as DCS Singapore, it does not ask for a specific amount of donation. Even though I’m not very close to the centre, I’ve attended their beginner and intermediate meditation classes for about 2-3 times and also many of their activities.
In terms of donations, DCS Singapore does not often ask for fixed donations – devotees are free to give any amount they like. But for bigger projects, like the construction of Singapore’s new permanent centre, a lot of funds is required. And they’ve set the minimal donation at certain sum (there’re tiers as well).
I believe (in my opinion), this will encourage devotees to raise more funds to build the new temple and encourage them to donate more (within their capabilities, of course). It is a month’s salary for some people, but the common practice is to pool money and offer it as a group.
I’m not sure about Wat Phra Dhammakaya in Thailand, but from what I can remember, there’re minimal donation amounts for certain projects as well. TRobinson, am I correct?

I’m not sure about other temples in Thailand, but this can be a topic of discussion:
Minimum sum for donations, and tiered contributions.



On "Free" stuff
jameswang wrote: Anyway, your free stuff came from people like "form".
Yes indeed James, the temple is a non-profit organization. So, the “free” stuff are financed or given by devotees. And it’s because of the devotee’s support that the temple is there in the first place. Moreover, giving “free” stuff isn’t specific to WPD. In Singapore, the Singapore Buddhist Lodge provides free vegetarian meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner) for the needy, which is possible only with the funds donated from devotees.

Hence, I don’t see what’s the issue with giving of free stuff here, James.


Warmest regards,
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
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exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by exonesion »

On the suggestion to donate to WPD
jameswang wrote: He's talking about the monk suggesting that he donated to Dk, and showing him the carrot. Btw, Isn't this an offence for a monk?
I believe this is wrong. But because the message has already been forwarded and retold two times (Monk --> Samseva’s friend --> Samseva), there is a possibility the message has already been distorted.
But IF the monk in question did say that, it’s best for the devotees to remind him of the inappropriateness of his statement, according to the Buddhist scriptures, in private.



On the purging of the World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President:
jameswang wrote: The link is former (purged) World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President, Pornchai Pinyapong.
This ousting of the President was proved unconstitutional.
WFB in its capacity as the “Mother Organization” for WFBY has failed to act impartially as seen in their SELECTIVE Invitation only to WFBY RCs of their choice. As a result RCs from about 10 countries and 16 Members Organizations are not invited.
Hence, the decision was invalid. Therefore, Mr. Pornchai Pinyapong is STILL President of WFBY
DMN wrote:


On WPD’s Political alliance
jameswang wrote: Really? I thought someone was just saying how the Dk is connected to Shinawarta family.
WPD denies any political affiliation.
It’s the news and other forums that alleges that WPD is connected to the Shinawatra family.
However, evidence is scant. The best we have is Mr. Thaksin participating in a ceremony.
But, it is unfair to say that WPD is affiliated to Thaksin just because he was in the ceremony.
It’s like saying a temple is affiliated to a famous serial murderer just because he was spotted in the temple’s ceremony.

Warmest regards,
Exonesion :anjali:
“Meditate, Ānanda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.”
The Buddha - MN 152
jameswang
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Post by jameswang »

exonesion wrote:On the purging of the World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President:
jameswang wrote: The link is former (purged) World Fellowship of Buddhist Youth (WFBY) President, Pornchai Pinyapong.
This ousting of the President was proved unconstitutional.
WFB in its capacity as the “Mother Organization” for WFBY has failed to act impartially as seen in their SELECTIVE Invitation only to WFBY RCs of their choice. As a result RCs from about 10 countries and 16 Members Organizations are not invited.
Hence, the decision was invalid. Therefore, Mr. Pornchai Pinyapong is STILL President of WFBY
That's according to your source which has highly vested interest. I rather trust WFBY.

And IN ANY CASE, Pornchai is still the link between Dhammakaya and Wirathu's Ma Ba Tha. Considering the big donation for Ma Ba Tha's radio station, now we can understand why Wirathu is showing support for Dhammakaya.
On WPD’s Political alliance
jameswang wrote: Really? I thought someone was just saying how the Dk is connected to Shinawarta family.
WPD denies any political affiliation.
It’s the news and other forums that alleges that WPD is connected to the Shinawatra family.
However, evidence is scant. The best we have is Mr. Thaksin participating in a ceremony.
But, it is unfair to say that WPD is affiliated to Thaksin just because he was in the ceremony.
It’s like saying a temple is affiliated to a famous serial murderer just because he was spotted in the temple’s ceremony.
Hey! Don't try to twist things here, ok?

It's no secret that Thaksin was far from merely spotted as attending one Dk ceremony. Heck, even Wirathu says that "the former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his sister Yingluk were disciples of Phra Dhammachayo." (https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/u- ... emple.html)
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