Wat Dhammakaya

[robertk]

Great post ManEagle. And congrats on resisting the urge to join Dhammakaya

[ManEagle]

Incidentally I was in Thailand earlier this year and visited the big temple in Pathum Thani (or rather was conned into visiting with my wifes' family) and spent 4 hours in the blazing heat simply watching around 1200 monks walk between the rows and rows people on their way back from their travels. I can honestly say it was the worst 4 hours of my life that I can remember. There was no escape either. everyone was packed in to the grounds of the temple in such a way that it was impossible to get out without causing serious religious sacrilege and enormous embarrassment. BUT, I sat through it without a word of complaint, although I could tell that my wife knew very well that I wasn't enjoying it. In fact she thanked me later that day for being patient enough to sit through it. I just have to put it down to good old 'experience'!!

[davidbrainerd]

I've always felt that the rituals/ceremonies practiced by Dhammakaya and other Buddhist sects go against the Buddhas original teaching and just today I watched a BBC documentary from 2003 called "The Life of the Buddha" where professor Gombrich said that "it is a great irony that after the Buddha’s death the person who preached the uselessness of ritual and also the uselessness of personality cult became the object of ritual worship and as big a personally cult that has ever existed in history." But then again, I suppose it's true to say that these rituals/ceremonies are all part of the whole package of any particular religious sect.

What's ironic to me is the makers of this BBC documentary probably never read the suttas. Did Buddha teach that ritual is useless in the absolute? Remember, not everyone is seeking absolute enlightenment. What is useless or not depends on the goal. To the attainment of arahantship some things will be useless that are not useless to laymen merely seeking celestial rebirth. Arhants receive alms, laymen give them. Wouldn't giving them be useless to an arhant? No point in making merit since they are supposed to be beyong kamma right. And cult of personality: everything I say is just so; I'm omniscient; I can see what monks are doing at a distance; you've got to call me Bhagavad, i.e. Lord or Blessed One in your average translation but its the same title Hindus use for gods, e.g. Bhagavad Gita. So yeah, obviously Buddha was totally against a cult of personality. The BBC got everything perfectly accurate.

[samseva]

To illustrate, magic amulets and blessing buildings or cars are Buddhist practices in the Discovery Channel sense of the word. However, these are not Buddhist practices in the real sense of the word (since these things actually go against the teachings, being wrong views based on delusion).

I think you would have to say that real Buddhism is just about dead in Thailand then. How about "Buddha relics" (as common in Thailand) do they have a place in real Buddhism or temporary ordination? Buddhist schools and community programmes?

When I first became interested in Buddhism I perceived the real Buddhism to be renunciant monasticism.

No, that's not what I think. You could say those are aspects of Thai Buddhism, but essentially, these relatively few things—which are a lot less present in the forest tradition compared to urban wats—aren't Buddhist practices (for a bhikkhu, these are actually considered wrong livelihood in the Vinaya). They are rather cultural customs.

[TRobinson465]

Thank you for the contribution, Trobinson.

I concur with you with the fact that Dhammakaya has very strong supporters from all sides of the political spectrum. That is due, to a great extent, to the indoctrination of children that Dhammakaya has been perpetrating since many years ago.

It is well know that in Thailand there are many schools that do not accept teachers that are not in possession of the Dhammakaya curriculum. Furthermore, Dhammakaya has been granting scholarship, awards and gifts nationwide not only to monks but to a great number of lay students at the most prestigious universities. As a result of that indoctrination, today there is a large number of powerful and well educated people, from lawyers and doctors to politicians and business tycoons, that are fervent Dhammakaya acolytes.

Please, allow me to ask a question about another issue:
What is your view on issues like the “Money for Heaven” or “Millionaire for Eternity” Dhammakaya programs, where one can buy benefits for the future lives that are proportional to the periodic donations to the temple?, or the purchase of seats (through donations) inside Wat Dhammakaya that are more expensive the closer you are to Dhammachayo? (that urge to seat with the Hi-So VIP, closer to Dhammachayo. is what lead the head of a family that I know to sell their properties, and consequently ruined the family)

Sorry I havent been able to reply, I had plans this weekend.

Anyways, I am curious as to the logic you are using by stating that Dhammakaya has followers from all sides of the political spectrum because they offer scholarships. Are you saying uneducated people only vote one way while the educated are more political diverse or something? I am curious as to how you made that connection. I am also wondering what you mean by "Dhammakaya Curriculum".

As for the buying of benefits for the future are proportional to donations. Let me say, first off Dhammakaya teaches that giving creates merit and therefore future benefits yes. The amount of merit you recieve from giving correlates to "the purity of the recipient, the purity of the giver, purity of the object given, purity of your intention, as well as how happy you feel when giving" according to Dhammakaya and Buddhism in general. Given all these things are equal giving more will give you more merit and therefore more future benefits.

There are seats that are reserved for special donors yes, not necessarily closer to the abbot since he is actually known for massive absenteeism the past several years due to his health issues. But yes, if you are in that seat you would be sitting closer to where he would sit if he attends. However the people that sit the closest to the abbot by far are his monks, because monks will usually sit in the front not just at Dhammakaya but at other temples. There are also seats reserved for special donors in other cases also, even for things the abbot never attends.

I have never heard of a case where someone ruined thier family by giving to Dhammakaya, if you have fine, its possible out of our 3 million members some people have done that. That is not what the temple intends though. Here is a quote from the abbot about donating that was on DMC,

“Don’t take out loans to make donations because it will put you into a troubled financial situation. Donate your own money, only what you are capable of, and if you want to contribute more than that, just invite others to donate with you instead,”

It's obvious you made up your mind about Dhammakaya so there's no point in me telling you this because either way you will see it as an attempt by Dhammakaya to team up with the Jews to take over the world or something. But for the neutral people that are here I have a few points to make.

A lot of what Dhammakaya does has to do with their unique approach, I remember one person from Australia who visited the temple (he didnt like it and left, which is fine, its not for everybody) that made this point, he called Dhammakaya "Boon" or merit based Buddhism. This is a pretty good description of the basis of how they do things. They don't put as much emphasis on escaping Samsara and practicing to detach yourself from the world as other Theravada temples would, especially compared to the Thai Forest Tradition (which is a minority of Thai Buddhism btw).

That being said, that is the reason they do things the way they do, they do teach about escaping suffering, but also emphasize the law of Karma and merit. They do this because most Thai Buddhists arent interested in practicing Buddhism hardcore to escape suffering as soon as possible, but on improving thier lives or afterlife. Dhammakaya caters to this base which is why so many people are drawn to it in my opinion, I myself had objections at first as someone who grew up in America and saw Buddhism differently than how it is at Dhammakaya, but I grew to like it because of how effective this approach was and how professional everyone at Dhammakaya was. This target base is why they really emphasize giving, precepts and meditation because practicing these will lead to future benefits while still stuck in Samsara and that is what a lot of people are looking for, escaping suffering just doesnt appeal to everybody and many do want to simply improve their lives. For these reasons Dhammakaya likes to "find excuses" for people to make merit, they have special seats for those who donate for that purpose if they choose, they host monthly events, and ceremonies for pretty much any holiday they can think of, mothers day, earth day, abbots ordination day, great master of Wat Paknam's birthday, ordination day, etc. where people will come to make merit by chanting and meditating, even if they cant attend the temple, they can still make merit by chanting and meditating at home and following on DMC. The fact is, the renunciation of the world and asceticism that the west likes to portray Buddhism as doesnt appeal to everyone nor is it the only thing the Buddha taught. There is such a thing as "Dhamma for Laypeople"

[TRobinson465]

Last Christmas day she really made me angry when she went to the temple with a local friend because they apparenlty had some big ordination ceremony taking place. She tried to fob me off by telling me that it was an important Buddhist day and, again, a day where she can get yet more merit! I tried to do some investigation and couldn't find anywhere that 25th December was a Buddhist day. I am not a Christian but we, like many people, celebrate on Christmas day with all the usual traditional stuff and it's generally a time when family get together. As I say, I wasn't pleased with her leaving us on Christmas day and when she returned I was still upset and angry and then to top it off I was told that all the merit she had gained that day had been taken away by me for being angry with her!! I couldn't believe what I was hearing! Anyway, the point being is how
Dhammakaya and its methods have almost completely taken over my wifes brain! I'm not saying that this was necessarily the intention of Dhammakaya but they should be made aware that this is what is happening. I see it everytime I get conned into going to the temple with her.

Hi Man Eagle, first off I'd like to say that Dhammakaya isnt for everybody and lots of people have legitimate reasons as to why they dont like it (and some dont, like ppl who claim we are bent on world domination or are secret Nazis or some other BS like that. ). It seems to me you are one of the people who would not like Dhammakaya, but your wife is so this is where a lot of the conflict is coming from. Yes, at Dhammakaya there tends to be a very devoted subgroup and your wife seems to fall in that category. But you seem to be taking out all your discontent out on the whole temple. I dont see why you dont just tell your wife your concerns and ask her to moderate herself more or sit her down and try to come up with some type of compromise if you are so bothered by it. And even if you have tried that, I still dont think your case against dhammakaya is very strong. I am glad Chownah was able to put it in perspective for you and that you have spent enough time in thailand to get that a lot of your complaints arent specific to this one temple.

Let me ask you this, devoted religious people exist everywhere, not just Dhammakaya, if your wife suddenly left Dhammakaya and had an equal amount of devotion to another temple or faith would you express the same discontent? If she left and joined Islam and started being super strict on consuming pork or alcohol and obsessed with praying 5 times a day would you have the same problem with Islam or a certain mosque as you would Dhammakaya? How about if your wife became Catholic or Jewish? I am asking because it seems like your main problem with Dhammakaya is that your wife is super devoted and you dont like that, but devoted people exist in every religion and while Im sure your wife isnt the only person at Dhammakaya who is that devoted this is a phenomenon that exists in every faith and religious organization. I think this is a good point to bring up based on your past posts.

[TRobinson465]

She is also taught to use the mantra 'summa arahang' a lot and not just when meditating. She (and most of the temple goes) have bought small battery operated counters that fit like a ring on one finger

By the way, I want to make a funny comment about those digital counters you are discussing (they were only about 2 dollars to buy btw, and you buy them at thrift stores, not from Dhammakaya directly). The people here making wild accusations against Dhammakaya are not alone. Bizarre conspiracy theories against Dhammakaya are quite common in Thailand. Here is one prominent Dhammakaya critic and "expert" discussing these tally counters you are mentioning. I'm sure you will recognize them from the video. Anti-Dhammakaya news outlets like the Bangkok Post and The Nation get about 90% of their information about Dhammakaya from this one critic. Just pointing out another point about the media bias from some news outlets, and because I think this is hilarious.

Here is a funny satire written about this gaffe if you want to elevate your mood a bit.

http://www.dhammakayauncovered.com/opin ... e-invented

phpBB .

[Virgo]

ไฮเทค

Kevin

[chownah]

ไฮเทค

Kevin

Please post in english which is what the rules of conduct require.
chownah

[TRobinson465]

ไฮเทค

Kevin

Please post in english which is what the rules of conduct require.
chownah

It says "High-Tech", after the high tech device the Dhammakaya critic revealed on Thai news I presume

[ManEagle]

Let me ask you this, devoted religious people exist everywhere, not just Dhammakaya, if your wife suddenly left Dhammakaya and had an equal amount of devotion to another temple or faith would you express the same discontent? If she left and joined Islam and started being super strict on consuming pork or alcohol and obsessed with praying 5 times a day would you have the same problem with Islam or a certain mosque as you would Dhammakaya? How about if your wife became Catholic or Jewish? I am asking because it seems like your main problem with Dhammakaya is that your wife is super devoted and you dont like that, but devoted people exist in every religion and while Im sure your wife isnt the only person at Dhammakaya who is that devoted this is a phenomenon that exists in every faith and religious organization. I think this is a good point to bring up based on your past posts.

You're absolutely right there - I would have the same issues if she was a member of any religious organisation. If you read my very first post under my original username (link supplied previously) I said that my views on religion generally are similar to the likes of the late Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Neil de Grasse Tyson and others. Over the last couple of years my views have been modified slightly. I am not so vehemently anti-religious as I once was. Having been (and still are) a student of philosophy I try to see things from as many different angles as possible. This can be a challenge at times when faced with ideas and views which go against my deepest held beliefs. I'm sure this is true for many people, whether religiously inclined or not. Try as I might to have a mind as open and honest as possible there is often a little chatterbox in my head which tries to tell me that everyone else is wrong and I am right so stick to your guns.

So, I agree that I shouldn't necessarily blame Dhammakaya per se for those things previously mentioned but I do believe they (meaning their teachers and teachings etc) share some responsibility. The same could be said for any religious/political or ideological teachings. Just as a teacher must share some responsiblity for imparting knowledge to others. Although it can be argued that the teacher should be looked upon as just a tool for learning it is I believe true to say many teachers can have enormous influence over others and therefore can affect the way they think.

I have tried in the past to have a conversation with my wife regarding the concerns I have about her involvement but unfortunately it has ended in argument and bad feeling. This is as much my fault as hers. I've often considered the idea of discussing it with another Dhammakaya follower with my wife as well in a kind of 'counsellor' type setting. I don't know if this would work but it may be worth a try.

Returning to a philosophical point of view (maybe this should be in another thread, if there is one similar), there are some philosophers around who have some interesting things to say about religion generally, not necessarily about Buddhism but more about the various metaphysical claims that many religions make about the world/universe/life etc etc. Alain de Botton is one such philosopher who is a self confessed atheist who takes I think a different approach by stressing that we should not reject religion out of hand but instead learn from what religions do really well, such as community cohesion etc, and try to incorporate those things into a general way of living without the need to call it religion, although he calls his idea "atheism 2.0", albeit with his tougue in his cheek! I'm sorry I have digressed too much here but nevertheless I think it gives readers out there a look into that part of me which finds religious groups like Dhammakaya so objectionable.

[TRobinson465]

So, I agree that I shouldn't necessarily blame Dhammakaya per se for those things previously mentioned but I do believe they (meaning their teachers and teachings etc) share some responsibility. The same could be said for any religious/political or ideological teachings. Just as a teacher must share some responsiblity for imparting knowledge to others. Although it can be argued that the teacher should be looked upon as just a tool for learning it is I believe true to say many teachers can have enormous influence over others and therefore can affect the way they think.

Great, very understandable. I myself am probably the opposite of you, I have had strong interest in religion since a very young age, all religions interested me actually, not just Buddhism. So i guess this brings us back to the "its for some people" concept. Dhammakaya does indeed have a minority that is very devoted and the average Dhammakaya follower is more religious than the average Thai Buddhist, this is true. As i mentioned before, this is one reason that I liked it, it was nice being in a place where a large number of people took the practice seriously. Obviously for you this is objectionable as would other organizations with a devoted base such as Mormonism I would presume (if your wife was mormon that is, as they too are known for having a more devoted than average base) but just trying provide some insight. So looks like for you Dhammakaya is not appealing, but for people like me it is.

[ManEagle]

I myself am probably the opposite of you, I have had strong interest in religion since a very young age, all religions interested me actually, not just Buddhism.

Actually, we're not so different. I too have had a keen interest in religions for many years. I have studied religions at university and became interested in Buddhism in particluar because it fitted more with my then views on how best to live my life. I practiced meditation and found it to be very beneficial in many ways, not least in helping to keep my mind quiet and focussed. My interest in Buddhism happened long before my academic studies and long before I met my wife. But I was, and still am, interested only in some aspects of Buddhism. I'm not interested in being part of all the supernatural aspects of Buddhism, such as karma, rebirth and merit making. None of these things are important to me. I believe my views are similar to Stephen Batchelor's. I have read one of his books some years ago called "confessions of a Buddhist atheist" which made an impression on me. I intend on reading another of his books sometime called "Buddhism without beliefs" which sounds like it's 'right up my street'!

Perhaps the difference between us is that my interest stems from a more anthropological standpoint. I am interested in the ways religion shapes peoples behaviour and so on but I'm not interested in becoming involved in any religion. I believe it is not necessary to become involved in a religion in order to fully understand it, as I'm sure professor Gombrich and others would agree with. In fact I believe, as many do these days, that religion is unnecessary. As I said before I don't think religions should be dismissed completely but instead to take all the useful things from them and incorporate them into a kind of set of rules for living ones' life, but not to be 'set in stone'. We are living in an evolving world where times change for one reason or another and I'm sure you will agree that Dhammakaya to a large extent has taken this on board in terms of how they have interpreted some of the original teachings of the Buddha as I understand it. Although, to be fair, is it not true to say that the many different forms of Buddhism have been doing this for centuries?

Anyway, back to the main point here, and that is that I believe that Dhammakaya as an organisation have a responsibility to ensure their followers are not becoming too extreme in the way they conduct themselves in everyday life.

[chownah]

Anyway, back to the main point here, and that is that I believe that Dhammakaya as an organisation have a responsibility to ensure their followers are not becoming too extreme in the way they conduct themselves in everyday life.

That is an interesting idea. Can you describe how they might do this...as an organisation?
Does dhammawheel as an organisation have a responsibility to be sure that people aren't spending too much time here?
chownah

[ManEagle]

Anyway, back to the main point here, and that is that I believe that Dhammakaya as an organisation have a responsibility to ensure their followers are not becoming too extreme in the way they conduct themselves in everyday life.

That is an interesting idea. Can you describe how they might do this...as an organisation?
Does dhammawheel as an organisation have a responsibility to be sure that people aren't spending too much time here?
chownah

In answer to your first point, perhaps it could be partly done through their DMC TV channel although from what I've seen of that it is very unlikely. I don't understand very much Thai language but I get the gyst of some of the stuff.

Your second point is nonsensical and completely irrelevant because as far as I know dhammawheel is not an organisation in the same way as Dhammakaya.