Theravada against mathematics

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:30 pm

Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 pm

Is there no Ways to Nibbana?[/color] Yes there is no ways within the dependently arisen regime to Nibbana, because Nibbana is the cessation of all that are dependently arisen, and that have to include any dependently arisen ways within the dependently arisen regime.
When the Path is passed, from beginning to end, Nibbana manifests. This does not mean that Nibbana is conditioned kammically. This dhamma has no kammic reasons, but there are conditions for its manifestation. After certain combinations of the dhammas that make up the passage of the Path, Nibbana manifests.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:37 pm

Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 pm
Can you go all the way from beginning to end, but not reach Nibbana? You cannot make something conditioned become unconditioned since what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive. When you are in the dependently arisen regime, there is no beginning and there is no end. The only end is the ending of the dependently arisen regime as a whole where it all ceases for you.
While still alive, "Arahant" is touching the body of Nibbana in the state of nirodha. As for the disintegration of the khandhas, this disintegration is the result of the complete passage of the Path — the result of a series of successive combinations of dhammas. Such a "novel" should have been written in the infinity of the past.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:41 pm

suaimhneas wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:43 am
Germann wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:55 pm
Buddhism does not teach budding flows with the formation of the first life in the new flow.
Sure, though I can't remember it being specifically ruled out either.

You are assuming that we are all infinite beings (have existed in a sense forever into the past) and that we have all lived for half of infinity already. There's a big difference between "no discernible beginning" and infinity.
If such budding is asserted, then kamma of one is capable of generating kammic effects from another - you can transfer your kammic fruit to another.
Why does any kammic fruit need to be transferred? In my hypothesis, if some kammic chain is initiated in a very simple being/organism on the borderline between life and non-life, then surely it would start with a fairly undifferentiated/clean kammic slate apart from basic ignorance/desire/survival impulse.

Or are you talking about branching flows (as in the many-worlds hypothesis)? Am not sure from your language. Even there, is it kamma transference? There was one being in one universe and then it splits into two beings in two universes (identical except for the particular quantum event/"choice"). Who gave the kamma and who received the kamma? Isn't it still just cause and effect (am not sure the Buddha ever considered the MW interpretation :) ).
I see no objection, since the past remains endless.

If, as a solution, the emergence of new streams of dhammas is approved — by budding — this means that the kamma of one stream has become kamma for another. That the fruits of one tasted another. Obviously, this is contrary to the doctrine of kamma.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:48 pm

Where did the idea come from that the theory of probability does not deal with deterministic processes, but only with random events? Аt the infinity of the past, the deterministic process - if it is possible - has the probability = 1 .

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Dan74-MkII
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Dan74-MkII » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:04 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:21 pm
Dan74-MkII wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:56 am
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:50 am

All combinations of dhammas from the Abhidhamma will be exhausted just like all combinations of buttons.
Asserting it doesn't make it so. The dhammas are causally connected. We know that we keep repeating yhe same mistakes, history repeats itself. There is a lot of cycling, a complex causally linked dependent dynamic - very far from a random sequence that your so-called theorems consider. Hence they don't apply.

The elements (dhammas) of the Abhidhamma are a finite set.
A reference would be nice, but still I wonder..

In the elements (dhammas) of the Abhidhamma there is not one that is inaccessible, never manifest. Nibbana appears when a previously known sequence of button combinations is pressed. This sequence corresponds to the "novel", which prints the "monkey" from the theorem.
Again, it is not at all clear to me that nibbana is a combination of dhammas. Why? Uncaused, unconditioned, it is called.

Your 'case' falls apart on a number of grounds..
First, you cut a sophism by giving a finite set (the list of dhammas in the Abhidhamma is finite) for an infinite. Then they eliminated deterministic processes from the subject of probability theory — although they also have probability. Then they ignored the doctrinal fact that behind a specific sequence of combinations of dhammas (after a specific sequence of keystrokes) - after passing the Path - Nibbana manifests itself.

This is not an argument.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, which is ok - we all make this mistake from time to time, but you're also not willing to concede or learn. I give up.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:07 pm

Dan74-MkII wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:04 pm
I give up.
The thesis is mathematically correct. I brought it up for discussion by professionals.
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/p ... em.967802/

UPD: "You have been banned for the following reason: Rules violations".
They are not interested in discussing religion.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:14 pm

Dan74-MkII wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:04 pm
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, which is ok - we all make this mistake from time to time, but you're also not willing to concede or learn.
Finite set of Abhidhamma dhammas corresponds to the finite set of typewriter buttons. The path to the realization of Nibbana is a sequence of combinations of dhammas, just like the printed text of a novel is a sequence of combinations of letters. The infinite monkey theorem is applicable to the Pali Abhidhamma.

If it was originally a question of a finite set of dhammas (the Abhidhamma dhammas list is finite) and a finite set of buttons, then an infinite set of options has nothing to do with the subject.

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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by cappuccino » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:38 pm

just being human is rare, especially in the time of a teaching Buddha

not everyone is interested in Theravada, very few

few of few succeed, hence it doesn't happen very often

now you ask a silly question, why hasn't everyone!

everyone is quite a lot, for a very rare thing

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Srilankaputra » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:53 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:14 pm
Dan74-MkII wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:04 pm
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, which is ok - we all make this mistake from time to time, but you're also not willing to concede or learn.
Finite set of Abhidhamma dhammas corresponds to the finite set of typewriter buttons. The path to the realization of Nibbana is a sequence of combinations of dhammas, just like the printed text of a novel is a sequence of combinations of letters. The infinite monkey theorem is applicable to the Pali Abhidhamma.

If it was originally a question of a finite set of dhammas (the Abhidhamma dhammas list is finite) and a finite set of buttons, then an infinite set of options has nothing to do with the subject.
You obviously misunderstand what is meant by dhamma. Concept of finite set of dhammas does not apply. Nor does an infinite set of dhammas.

If I were to give a simile, take a close look at a lamp flame. It is wrong to call it a infinite series of flames. Also it is wrong to call it a single flame. For it is never the same flame.

If you try to fit all the water in a kettle inside a teacup it just going to create a big mess. You cannot fit reality inside logic and reason. Logic and reason is only an small subset of the vastness of reality.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Germann
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wolfram

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:18 pm

Suggested for discussion in math group
https://community.wolfram.com/groups/-/m/t/1628278

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:21 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:38 pm

now you ask a silly question, why hasn't everyone!
Abstracts are mathematically correct and therefore not stupid.

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Re: wolfram

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:23 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:18 pm
Suggested for discussion in math group
In the Commentaries, the Buddha is called the "Spiritual Doctor" rather than the "Great Mathematician". My recollection is in MN 22 he said: "I teach only about suffering & its cure/cessation/eradication".

In this thread, you appeared to begin with the idea of reincarnation of "beings" ("satta"). But when you acknowledged "beings" ("satta") are only "pannatti" ("ideas", "concepts", "views", "labels"), you then appeared to start posting about the "reincarnation of elements". I do not recall ever reading the Buddha taught about the "birth" ("jati") of elements ("dhatu").

My impression here, maybe I am wrong, is you believe the mere elements of earth, wind, fire, water, space & consciousness have "past lives". Is this true?

:spy:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:27 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:53 pm

You obviously misunderstand what is meant by dhamma. Concept of finite set of dhammas does not apply. Nor does an infinite set of dhammas.

If I were to give a simile, take a close look at a lamp flame. It is wrong to call it a infinite series of flames. Also it is wrong to call it a single flame. For it is never the same flame.

If you try to fit all the water in a kettle inside a teacup it just going to create a big mess. You cannot fit reality inside logic and reason. Logic and reason is only an small subset of the vastness of reality.
The Abhidhamma describes a finite number of varieties of phenomena. Phenomena of previously known varieties are involved in all processes. It's like a typewriter key. Each dhamma from the list is like one of the buttons.
Last edited by Germann on Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:28 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:27 pm
The Abhidhamma describes a finite number of varieties of phenomena. Phenomena of previously known varieties are involved in all processes. It's like a typewriter key.
I personally would prefer if you actually quoted the relevant paragraphs of the Abhidhamma (rather than post unreferenced ideas). Most here have not read the Abhidhamma. Thanks :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:28 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:27 pm
The Abhidhamma describes a finite number of varieties of phenomena. Phenomena of previously known varieties are involved in all processes. It's like a typewriter key.
I personally would prefer if you actually quoted the relevant paragraphs of the Abhidhamma (rather than post unreferenced ideas). Most here have not read the Abhidhamma. Thanks :thanks:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/sangaha.htm
Citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbāna are paramattha dhammas, these are final lists of varieties of phenomena. The entire Path to the realization of Nibbana is a series of combinations of dhammas from the categories сitta, cetasika, rupa. Just as a printed text of a novel is a sequence of combinations of letters of vowels, consonants, etc.

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